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  #1  
Old 11-16-2009, 01:25 AM
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Linear Tracking Turntables Best For Quad?

Seems a few forum members own Linear Tracking turntables. Acoustic is the latest to post pictures of his beautiful, new Yamaha PX-3 linear tracking table.

Does the linear tracking tonearm lend itself to superior stylus contact with the record groove for 4-channel vinyl recordings?

Any other benefits of LT compared to pivoting tonearms? Conversely, what are the biggest drawbacks of LT?

Scott(koseltri) has some good technical responses to Acoustic's thread, so I'm hoping he can share more of his experiences. Oh, and feel free to post photos of your linear tracking turntable(s) when responding.

Nando.
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Old 11-16-2009, 02:20 AM
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Linear tracking is far superior to pivoting, at least in theory, as the tracking error is practically eliminated.

The issue is with implementation. It's much more complicated to make a LT tonearm and where the pivoted arm relies on precision bearings (something pretty straightforward) the LT tonearm invariably requires at least one servo motor, sensors and precision circuitry to transport the tonearm from the outer groove to the inner.

Revox has made a well engineered version of a linear tracking tonearm and used it on it's range of TTs. It's a combination of a servo controlled tonearm base and a unipivot tonearm. When it works correctly, it's great. But after so many years all used TTs seem to suffer from abuse and misalignment. Takes some effort to bring them back to top performance.

I would assume that for these reasons alone, 4 channel playback could be much better with a LT turntable, but I've never listened to a 4channel setup.
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Old 11-16-2009, 03:58 AM
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Hi SaSi_Sidi,

It would make sense that if the lathe cutter travels across the record face and cuts the grooves in a linear fashion, sound reproduction would be best achieved using the same tonearm tracking action in playback.

I'm interested in a Mitsubishi LT-30, but besides the high price the seller is asking for this TT, I was worried about how dependable it would be. I have an Empire 4000 XL 111 cartridge with new stylus, I would probably mount for 4-channel playback. And I'll use a Sansui QR 4500 quad receiver for decoding.

Nando.
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Old 11-16-2009, 07:16 AM
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I wouldn't worry that much about reliabilty as long as it's working well. I think it is a tribute to the engineering of these tables that so many of them are still going after 20-30 years. The Pioneer PL-L1000 is a standout from an engineering point of view as well. It uses a linear motor to move the tonearm (which rides on a carriage supported by 3 steel rollers using roller bearings) so that there is no mechanical connection to introduce noise. The action itself is completely silent so you don't ever hear that servo sound. 'Course, if you're a geek like me and like that sound, you gotta have both... As for Quad, I have heard it put forward that a good linear tracker is a better choice.
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R2R: Teac X-7R Mk. II; Akai GX-620

Cassette: Teac Z-7000, V900X, R-888X; Technics RS-B85 (2), RS-TR555; Sony K615S, RX-606ES, TC-K71, TC-K630 ES, TC-K690; JVC TD-V66 (3), KD-V6, TD-V661; Onkyo TA-2090, TA-2058; Optonica RT-6506; Pioneer CT-F900 (2), CT-6R; HK CD 491, TD 392; Denon DR-M4, DRM-800, DR-M33; Nakamichi BX-300; Sankyo STD-3000; Aiwa F-770U (2); Yamaha K-1020; Hitachi D-2200M
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Old 11-16-2009, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elite-ist View Post
Hi SaSi_Sidi

I'm interested in a Mitsubishi LT-30, but besides the high price the seller is asking for this TT, I was worried about how dependable it would be. I have an Empire 4000 XL 111 cartridge with new stylus, I would probably mount for 4-channel playback. And I'll use a Sansui QR 4500 quad receiver for decoding.

Nando.
The LT-30 is a nice unit with a couple of caveats. If it hasn't been service recently the arm belts will likely need replacement. They are available and fairly easy to replace. Also, it uses a controller chip custom made for Mitsubishi that is no longer available anywhere. I've seen more than one of these units recently that had this part bad. The bad thing is the symptom of the chip being bad is the same symptom you get if the belt(s) are bad so you have to be careful when getting an LT-30.
I've owned many Linear trackers and some are implimented better than others. Other ones to look for are:

Sony PS-X555ES Biotracer Linear
Sony PS-X800 Biotracer Linear
Harmon Kardon/Rabco ST(7,8) These can be a little temperamental but with new belts and proper set up they sound and work great.

Back in the day I used a Thorens TD125 with a Rabco SL8E and AT shibata and it worked just great.

Dave
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Old 11-16-2009, 07:20 AM
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I have both the Sonys, and would add the PL-L1000/Phase Linear 8000 to that list. Never have had the HK/Rabcos, but would not turn up my nose at one...one of the advantages of this design is the abscence of servo/logic electronics for the tonearm.
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R2R: Teac X-7R Mk. II; Akai GX-620

Cassette: Teac Z-7000, V900X, R-888X; Technics RS-B85 (2), RS-TR555; Sony K615S, RX-606ES, TC-K71, TC-K630 ES, TC-K690; JVC TD-V66 (3), KD-V6, TD-V661; Onkyo TA-2090, TA-2058; Optonica RT-6506; Pioneer CT-F900 (2), CT-6R; HK CD 491, TD 392; Denon DR-M4, DRM-800, DR-M33; Nakamichi BX-300; Sankyo STD-3000; Aiwa F-770U (2); Yamaha K-1020; Hitachi D-2200M
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  #7  
Old 11-16-2009, 11:27 AM
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the LT tonearm invariably requires at least one servo motor, sensors and precision circuitry to transport the tonearm from the outer groove to the inner.

There are 2 types of linear trackers, a pseudo linear arm which actually does have a small amount of error which uses electric switches to tell the arm to move across the record when a small amount of grove movement is detected. Most mid fi tables fall into this category.

True linear trackers like the marantz of the 60's, and some high end arms actually are based on super low friction bearings and other mechanical technology and do provide zero error. Because of the tolerences involved they need to be properly maintaned and used in a clean environment.

Both types can work well.




Quote:
Originally Posted by SaSi_Sidi View Post
Linear tracking is far superior to pivoting, at least in theory, as the tracking error is practically eliminated.

The issue is with implementation. It's much more complicated to make a LT tonearm and where the pivoted arm relies on precision bearings (something pretty straightforward) the LT tonearm invariably requires at least one servo motor, sensors and precision circuitry to transport the tonearm from the outer groove to the inner.

Revox has made a well engineered version of a linear tracking tonearm and used it on it's range of TTs. It's a combination of a servo controlled tonearm base and a unipivot tonearm. When it works correctly, it's great. But after so many years all used TTs seem to suffer from abuse and misalignment. Takes some effort to bring them back to top performance.

I would assume that for these reasons alone, 4 channel playback could be much better with a LT turntable, but I've never listened to a 4channel setup.
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  #8  
Old 11-16-2009, 10:09 PM
DolbySProject DolbySProject is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marek View Post
the LT tonearm invariably requires at least one servo motor, sensors and precision circuitry to transport the tonearm from the outer groove to the inner.

There are 2 types of linear trackers, a pseudo linear arm which actually does have a small amount of error which uses electric switches to tell the arm to move across the record when a small amount of grove movement is detected. Most mid fi tables fall into this category.

True linear trackers like the marantz of the 60's, and some high end arms actually are based on super low friction bearings and other mechanical technology and do provide zero error. Because of the tolerences involved they need to be properly maintaned and used in a clean environment.

Both types can work well.
Agreed. I have a Technics SL-M3 which, although TOTL for Technics consumer LT's, still uses a switch and thus an arm with some side to side play, for the purpose of engaging the switch and at high volume you can hear servo artifacts, even though groove distortions across the wax are noticeably less. However, this is really nitpicking. Still, I would have to surmise that a "true" linear tracker whose arm always remains true and floats on air or a magnetic field or whatever, would be better... ...for the audiophile nervosa crowd. I straddle the fence and try not to get chaffed.
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  #9  
Old 11-16-2009, 11:50 PM
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The sl-m3 is a really nice table and way under the radar as far as build quality and engineering for the price, a very pretty table as well.

This table and more is here:Link




Quote:
Originally Posted by DolbySProject View Post
Agreed. I have a Technics SL-M3 which, although TOTL for Technics consumer LT's, still uses a switch and thus an arm with some side to side play, for the purpose of engaging the switch and at high volume you can hear servo artifacts, even though groove distortions across the wax are noticeably less. However, this is really nitpicking. Still, I would have to surmise that a "true" linear tracker whose arm always remains true and floats on air or a magnetic field or whatever, would be better... ...for the audiophile nervosa crowd. I straddle the fence and try not to get chaffed.
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Last edited by Marek; 11-17-2009 at 11:59 AM. Reason: Added link
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  #10  
Old 11-17-2009, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by koseltri View Post
I wouldn't worry that much about reliabilty as long as it's working well. I think it is a tribute to the engineering of these tables that so many of them are still going after 20-30 years. The Pioneer PL-L1000 is a standout from an engineering point of view as well. It uses a linear motor to move the tonearm (which rides on a carriage supported by 3 steel rollers using roller bearings) so that there is no mechanical connection to introduce noise. The action itself is completely silent so you don't ever hear that servo sound. 'Course, if you're a geek like me and like that sound, you gotta have both... As for Quad, I have heard it put forward that a good linear tracker is a better choice.
Hi Scott,

My brother-in-law owns a Pioneer PL-L800. It has the champagne finish, and it was one of the several Pioneer components he bought as a Pioneer system in 1981. Does this table have the same refinements as the PL-L1000?

The only damage done in the past 28 years he's owned it, was the stylus being worn down to a nub. This wasn't from normal usage, though. His younger brother had borrowed his turntable for a party. Youngster, that he was, he had grand aspirations of becoming a DJ, and was using the Pioneer to "scratch" some vinyl. I know, I grimaced too, when I heard the story. His brother hadn't confessed to the act for some years later. However, he does DJ on special occasions, at local clubs, in his spare time the past few years.

Nando.
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  #11  
Old 11-17-2009, 11:28 AM
DolbySProject DolbySProject is offline
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The sl-m3 is a really nice table and way under the radar as far as build quality and engineering for the price, a very pretty table as well.*thumbsup
Man, that pic gets around. That actually is my table per my old setup. (I really need to send an update to that site. ) The record playing is Nat King Cole - Unforgettable. ...and the PDR-509 is back in the box, replaced by tape!

The Yamaha and Sony LT's really look awesome. I certainly wouldn't throw those back in the water if I hooked one.
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Old 11-17-2009, 11:50 AM
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There is some interesting general table and arm info here where they discuss the kuzma table and linear arm...

From a design perspective and build quality, the Kuzma is state of the art. Nothing about the arm and the table are less than the finest. It is designed to be simple to set up and maintain and it has proven highly reliable that should provide decades of enjoyment filled use. Once it is set up, there is very little to adjust, except of course, cartridge adjustments such as VTA, VTF, SRA etc. These are made exceptionally easy due to the Kuzma tonearm design which permits VTA adjustment on the fly and exact settings with the use of a digital readout. Using an air compressor for the air bearing tonearm is a minor annoyance, but it is exceptionally quiet and virtually maintenance free.

Some good info on linear arms and Kuzma's philosophy can be found in this write up "THEORY BEHIND AIR LINE TANGENTIAL AIR BEARING TONEARM" by Franc Kuzma

Located here, about 2/3 of the page down.

A stereophile review is here.

While these tables are too expensive for most people the information presented is a good background for vinyl users.
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Old 11-17-2009, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elite-ist View Post
My brother-in-law owns a Pioneer PL-L800. It has the champagne finish, and it was one of the several Pioneer components he bought as a Pioneer system in 1981. Does this table have the same refinements as the PL-L1000?
No, it doesn't. It had a conventional small DC motor to advance the tonearm, as well as a coil which I believe is supposed to 'levitiate' the tonearm carriage to some degree. I have one of these too, it's never worked quite right (though with its ultra-light carbon-fiber arm it would track a warp nearly an inch tall), I suppose I should get it out again and see what I can do with it. Have I mentioned I have 18 different linears? The only kind I'm not familiar with are the exotic air-bearing types. Too expensive for me, as well as way too involved, what with air pumps, lines, and such. Besides, I like something automatic. Set the LP down, push a button, go sit down (or make coffee, or whatever). I'm the kind who can wander off and forget about that stylus grinding down after hours of running in the center groove. The SL-M3 and the PX-3 are the only two left on my list of 'wants'.
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R2R: Teac X-7R Mk. II; Akai GX-620

Cassette: Teac Z-7000, V900X, R-888X; Technics RS-B85 (2), RS-TR555; Sony K615S, RX-606ES, TC-K71, TC-K630 ES, TC-K690; JVC TD-V66 (3), KD-V6, TD-V661; Onkyo TA-2090, TA-2058; Optonica RT-6506; Pioneer CT-F900 (2), CT-6R; HK CD 491, TD 392; Denon DR-M4, DRM-800, DR-M33; Nakamichi BX-300; Sankyo STD-3000; Aiwa F-770U (2); Yamaha K-1020; Hitachi D-2200M
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Old 11-17-2009, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by koseltri View Post
No, it doesn't. It had a conventional small DC motor to advance the tonearm, as well as a coil which I believe is supposed to 'levitiate' the tonearm carriage to some degree. I have one of these too, it's never worked quite right (though with its ultra-light carbon-fiber arm it would track a warp nearly an inch tall), I suppose I should get it out again and see what I can do with it. Have I mentioned I have 18 different linears? The only kind I'm not familiar with are the exotic air-bearing types. Too expensive for me, as well as way too involved, what with air pumps, lines, and such. Besides, I like something automatic. Set the LP down, push a button, go sit down (or make coffee, or whatever). I'm the kind who can wander off and forget about that stylus grinding down after hours of running in the center groove. The SL-M3 and the PX-3 are the only two left on my list of 'wants'.
Hi Scott,

I suspected, based on your knowledge of linear tracking turntables, you had a number of these turntables. I didn't think it would be as high as 18! How about a few photos of your #1 pick of your collection. Then, you can follow with #2, and so on.

One of my friends is contemplating buying a loaner table. It's an older SOTA Star, with the vacuum hold down (for the LPs) operated by a stand-alone pump. Very nicely finished, and weighs over 40 lbs., less the pump. I only mention it because it's one of those "stay-and-play" models. Yup, tonearm doesn't return at the end of the record. I need automation!

Well, I decide, very soon, whether I'll buy the Mitsubishi LT-30. I spoke to the owner today. As I mentioned before, he wants as much as it retailed when new. Give me a convincing reason I should give it a new home.

Nando.
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Old 11-17-2009, 06:40 PM
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One of my friends is contemplating buying a loaner table. It's an older SOTA Star, with the vacuum hold down (for the LPs) operated by a stand-alone pump. Very nicely finished, and weighs over 40 lbs., less the pump. I only mention it because it's one of those "stay-and-play" models.

The vacuum version is the star saphire; all of the star family is upgradable by sota and parts are currently available. The vacuum system is one of the best, it doesn't leak and is very reliable. Some of the best tables ever made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elite-ist View Post
Hi Scott,

I suspected, based on your knowledge of linear tracking turntables, you had a number of these turntables. I didn't think it would be as high as 18! How about a few photos of your #1 pick of your collection. Then, you can follow with #2, and so on.

One of my friends is contemplating buying a loaner table. It's an older SOTA Star, with the vacuum hold down (for the LPs) operated by a stand-alone pump. Very nicely finished, and weighs over 40 lbs., less the pump. I only mention it because it's one of those "stay-and-play" models. Yup, tonearm doesn't return at the end of the record. I need automation!

Well, I decide, very soon, whether I'll buy the Mitsubishi LT-30. I spoke to the owner today. As I mentioned before, he wants as much as it retailed when new. Give me a convincing reason I should give it a new home.

Nando.
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  #16  
Old 11-18-2009, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Elite-ist View Post
#1 pick of your collection. Then, you can follow with #2, and so on.
That's a toughie. I would have said either the PS-X800 or the PL-L1000. But I set up the LT-30 last night--until it gets fixed, it works as a manual--and it's every bit as good as anything I have. VTA (vertical tracking angle) is adjustable 'on the fly', adjusting tracking force requires you to lift the tonearm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elite-ist View Post
Give me a convincing reason I should give it a new home.
The LT-30 looks great (you can always re-veneer it with real wood veneer, it's on my list of to-do's), sounds great, and neither you nor I can afford a Sota Star (the current version lists @$3450.00 from needledoctor.com, without a tonearm). And, it's full-auto.
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R2R: Teac X-7R Mk. II; Akai GX-620

Cassette: Teac Z-7000, V900X, R-888X; Technics RS-B85 (2), RS-TR555; Sony K615S, RX-606ES, TC-K71, TC-K630 ES, TC-K690; JVC TD-V66 (3), KD-V6, TD-V661; Onkyo TA-2090, TA-2058; Optonica RT-6506; Pioneer CT-F900 (2), CT-6R; HK CD 491, TD 392; Denon DR-M4, DRM-800, DR-M33; Nakamichi BX-300; Sankyo STD-3000; Aiwa F-770U (2); Yamaha K-1020; Hitachi D-2200M
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DolbySProject View Post
Man, that pic gets around. That actually is my table per my old setup. (I really need to send an update to that site. ) The record playing is Nat King Cole - Unforgettable. ...and the PDR-509 is back in the box, replaced by tape!

The Yamaha and Sony LT's really look awesome. I certainly wouldn't throw those back in the water if I hooked one.
Hi DolbySP,

That's a nice looking Technics! I think, with the turntable trimmed out in wood, it harkens back to the earlier days of substantial meat put into the table design. Even the platter is hefty.

I use an older Pioneer PL-570, and the Mitsubishi LT-30 would be a nice pairing for the stand.

Nando.
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  #18  
Old 11-18-2009, 10:21 AM
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I have to agree...the mitsubishi's and pioneers are pretty impressive as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DolbySProject View Post
The Yamaha and Sony LT's really look awesome. I certainly wouldn't throw those back in the water if I hooked one.
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  #19  
Old 11-18-2009, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marek View Post
There is some interesting general table and arm info here where they discuss the kuzma table and linear arm...

From a design perspective and build quality, the Kuzma is state of the art. Nothing about the arm and the table are less than the finest. It is designed to be simple to set up and maintain and it has proven highly reliable that should provide decades of enjoyment filled use. Once it is set up, there is very little to adjust, except of course, cartridge adjustments such as VTA, VTF, SRA etc. These are made exceptionally easy due to the Kuzma tonearm design which permits VTA adjustment on the fly and exact settings with the use of a digital readout. Using an air compressor for the air bearing tonearm is a minor annoyance, but it is exceptionally quiet and virtually maintenance free.

Some good info on linear arms and Kuzma's philosophy can be found in this write up "THEORY BEHIND AIR LINE TANGENTIAL AIR BEARING TONEARM" by Franc Kuzma

Located here, about 2/3 of the page down.

A stereophile review is here.

While these tables are too expensive for most people the information presented is a good background for vinyl users.
Hi Marek,

Thanks for providing the links. Although this equipment is out of my realm of owning, the articles are beneficial in understanding the technology behind trying to achieve perfection within a turntable's design and construction. For me, it has always been the best value with what I can afford. And I don't think I could afford buying new- much better to buy used, but well-cared-for equipment.

My friend has parted with a deposit towards the purchase of the SOTA Star Sapphire. I love the idea: he was able to try it out berfore making his decision. That's always a deal clincher!

Nando.
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koseltri View Post
That's a toughie. I would have said either the PS-X800 or the PL-L1000. But I set up the LT-30 last night--until it gets fixed, it works as a manual--and it's every bit as good as anything I have. VTA (vertical tracking angle) is adjustable 'on the fly', adjusting tracking force requires you to lift the tonearm.



The LT-30 looks great (you can always re-veneer it with real wood veneer, it's on my list of to-do's), sounds great, and neither you nor I can afford a Sota Star (the current version lists @$3450.00 from needledoctor.com, without a tonearm). And, it's full-auto.
Hi Scott,

Appreciate the posting of the photo of your LT-30! The one I'm interested in is in cosmetically good condition. The owner has had it for the past 3 years, and I know him. The only sticking point for me is the price- and I know from looking at a sparse number of past sales of this table he's comparable. I''m going to downplay it, if I decide to deal, as he's already told me he wants it to "go to a good home."

Would you post a picture of your Pioneer, if it's not too much trouble? I am a big Pioneer fan.

My friend, Robert, has left a deposit towards the formerly-owned SOTA (State Of The Art) Star Sapphire. Purchase price is $1,200, if I recall correctly.


Take care,

Nando.
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