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Universal Capstan Motor
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:13 AM
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Capstan rust

Hi, just grabbed a very cheap TSR-8 on CL. Apparently victim of water damage, i've been cleaning it and mechanically is working fine and the transport is good too. While cleaning the rust, i am finding the capstan shaft with some rust that i just can't remove. See picture, any ideas here ?

may keep this as parts for my other TSR-8 that i use, but maybe i can get this one into a workable state, heads are good and transport works fine, the thing is so filthy and dirty that i've just spent the whole evening cleaning it in and out. any tips for the capstan ? haven't tested any audio functions yet.

thanks,
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:14 AM
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Try some sandpaper (fine, at least 800) upon it.
If it is so rusted that the rust actually fills in the carved metal, it is better to leave it there, otherwise the pinch roller will leave the hole imprint on tape.
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:37 AM
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Try some acetone on a Q-tip. Then try some alcohol on a chunk of magic eraser. Acetone WILL melt plastic, so be careful. It might melt the magic eraser also.
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:10 AM
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What did you try to clean it with? Could be tape oxide, try some repeated cleanings with head cleaner.
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:52 AM
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The Capstan Shaft is glazed anyway so you should recondition it with sandpaper wrapped around the Pinch Roller and let run for 5 to 10 minutes.
The oxidation may come off in that process which if you are good at restoration you will need to do this anyway. Some small amount may remain but it is really not that big a deal.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:19 AM
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Emery cloth would be better, wrap it round the capstan and lift the tensioner to start the motor, then hold the cloth fairly tight as the capstan spins. You'll polish it rather than remove a lot of material. I wouldn't use sandpaper coarser than 800 grit.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:28 AM
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Teacs with that matte finish seem to do this a lot. I'm not sure the discoloration is rust, but it cannot be cleaned.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:54 PM
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If it is rust I suggest Scotch Brite pad & power up the deck & capstan then apply the Scotch Brite pad working it up/down or in/out while the capstan is spinning. This is how I have removed rust on capstans. The more worn the Scotch Brite pad the more it acts like real fine sandpaper which is a good thing as it is less abrasive & will give a fineer finish.

Also there was a product called the "Original Rust Eater". That did work ok on removing some rust, problem is I have not been able to find it anymore. Can also try Caig products they have a lube that sounds like it might remove rust & corrosion & won't cause galvanic reaction.

After the rust is removed then you can apply the chemical that will put the factory dull gray look back on the capstan for better traction/grip.
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:36 PM
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ok, i followed the directions and used 800 sand paper. here's the before and after, hope i didn't go too far. Rust was deep. Should i protect this with something ? will it get rust again ? (the whole recorder had water damage) but not sure if with this sanding the bare metal will get rust anyway with time. 390 mentioned that there is a chemical to use to give it the "dull" look, you know what that is ? is it really needed ?

thanks a lot for the tip, what a difference
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Old 05-12-2012, 03:28 AM
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The worst you could do by taking off too much is the deck will run slow, but we're talking micro percentages here.

As long as you keep it indoors, it shouldn't need any special treatment. It's probably a low-grade stainless steel.
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Old 05-12-2012, 04:14 AM
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I think you sanded off some sort of satin nickel plating or something. Shouldn’t it have that satin finish for traction? __
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Old 05-12-2012, 04:31 AM
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It looks the same as the Otari MX50N capstan now when brand new. Can't see why it wouldn't work IMHO.

Edit - 12/05 19:47 - Just realised that mine is obviously chrome plated or something similar and not sanded like this picture!

Last edited by allthingsanalogue; 05-12-2012 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 05-12-2012, 05:53 AM
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Instead of following my instructions you took the easy way out and made the shaft worse by making it polished and slippery. Now you have to go back and either have the shaft removed for sandblasting or do the procedure I outlined as a way to get the matt finish on the shaft. New one comes with this course finish for a reason. I have seen the tape slip or slide through the capstan shaft and Pinch roller when at first start the take-up tension is greater for a second or two. You will hear this when you start a recording unless you record 5 seconds after the tape is started. Even then the diameter of the shaft gets smaller with this polishing and the speed can NOT be adjusted on a AC motor.
as for other decks that have polished capstan shafts- they are of different designs OR the make of the deck did not have a choice as the motor came that way. Polished shaft designs may employ a servo tension system to more correctly manage the tape tension. Such a machine is like the Tascam 42 or 52 decks.
Try your machine and see if the speed is not correct when you start up. If it is OK then don't worry about the shaft if it is not OK then back to my post that tells you how to correct this shaft.
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(630)616-0932 Office/ 708-334-2260 Cell, E mail:skywavebe@sbcglobal.net
Past Teac/Tascam Lead Service Technician at Chicago Factory Service still doing repairs.
http://www.thumbtack.com/il/bensenvi...tascam-repairs
Need Tape? http://www.splicit.com/index.html, The BEST SM are from Stereomanuals.com!
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:10 AM
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oops. :( i think i followed a combination of the instructions below from different posts. I have another TSR-8 that is in good condition and the capstan is totally shiny. A closer look doesn't show like it has been sanded, so i assumed (probably wrong) that it was ok to just hold the sand paper around it and let it go for a while until the rust was gone and the thing was shiny.

I can run a test with a frequency counter and see if the speed changed. This deck has controls for capstan servo speed adjustment (R51) and servo tension control, so maybe i can use those to fine tune it ?.

Back to your suggestion to get the matte finish back, when you say the instructions you noted you mean wrapping the sandpaper around the capstan and let it run ? will that bring the matte finish back ?

Now, when i put the pinch roller i noticed a different problem the pinch roller seem to engage in a slight angle to the capstan, this angle is present evn before is engaged, very slight, but i can see it. Could it be that the pinch roller arm is bent ? how bad of a problem that is ? thanks again
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:38 AM
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A bent pinchroller shaft will cause tracking problems. Better straighten that out, you want even contact across the capstan.
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:51 AM
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My instructions are to wrap the Pinch Roller with sandpaper with double sided tape so that the roller would run up against the Capstan shaft and imprint it with a roughness not scratch it. Pinch roller shaft being bent is a whole different subject and trying to bend it back in a manner which I think some might use will result in a damage to the post that this arm rotates on.
As is the case with people who do not know repair to tape decks and try and take the short cut usually end up with a more costly repair and quite possibly a damaged beyond repair deck unless you want to take a stripped down chassis to a machine shop to have the part damaged repaired. I doubt anyone will go to that extent.
This is how a simple repair on a good machine ends up being a parts machine due to bad advice and dumb repair procedures.
So far with what I have seen here, you would have been better off taking the unit to a Technician in the first place.
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Skywave Tape Deck Repair- Chicago area
(630)616-0932 Office/ 708-334-2260 Cell, E mail:skywavebe@sbcglobal.net
Past Teac/Tascam Lead Service Technician at Chicago Factory Service still doing repairs.
http://www.thumbtack.com/il/bensenvi...tascam-repairs
Need Tape? http://www.splicit.com/index.html, The BEST SM are from Stereomanuals.com!
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:45 AM
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ok, went ahead and used the sandpaper on the pinch roller. see new picture, being the third one on the right. About the pinch roller angle, the pinch roller sits with a bearing on a shaft that i don't think is bent given the size and thickness. What i think maybe slightly bent or misaligned is the arm, check second picture. I have not applied any torsion or haven't done anything with it yet, if anyone has any ideas let me know, it is very slight.


About this deck, i picked it up for $100 and had water damage, rust in many places. i bought it as a spares for my other TSR-8 which is in good condition. However, after cleaning, disassembling and scraping and treating the rusted parts i noticed the deck is in good shape electrically. Mechanically i rectified the reel tables in a lathe and readjusted brakes, etc. So i want to bring it back to working condition now if i can.

I'd like to do this myself if possible as i want to learn and also enjoy fixing things, it is a hobby for me and my experience is only like 3 months doing this as i fixed a Tascam 32 that i also got for free that was kind of destroyed.

There are 2 places where i could take this in my area (without having to drive to bay area), one of them they didn't even know what a calibration tape was, so i went back home after that...

I understand the risks associated with a DIY approach, specially when i make mistakes which have been many and hopefully less as i learn more from people in these forums. Help has been very valuable here over the past months since i joined these forums and i really appreciate these discussions and tips that you guys provide.

thanks, let me know if you have any ideas on the pinch roller arm, if it can be aligned somehow.
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File Type: jpg 3capstans.jpg (51.2 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg arm.jpg (54.4 KB, 34 views)

Last edited by fgonza2; 05-12-2012 at 11:49 AM. Reason: forgot pictures
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Old 05-12-2012, 02:32 PM
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Very good on the Capstan Shaft. Now it looks a bit weird due to the other polishing but at least you have a good working surface. The Pinch Roller arm is not likely to be bent so easily. Again an understanding of what you are looking at make a big difference. Does your Pinch Roller have a ball bearing in it? I suspect that it does. I would do visual inspections of the Pinch Roller shaft in line with the capstan shaft to see if it is indeed bent or not. You do not want to find it bent! Chances are that either the ball bearing is worn or the rubber on the roller is cleaned or worn in a bad way resulting in an angle that you are seeing. With ball bearings in the center of a Pinch Roller they are kind of self adjusting as the roller will adapt to the shaft it is coming up to with that bearing being in the middle. I ordered some from VBX and have replaced one in a 42 Pinch Roller due to a ticking noise. This may be a similar type Pinch Roller design.
IF the Pinch Roller arm is bent, then you need to know where it got bent at and see if that can be corrected maybe in a vise. That means put the channel locks away and take the arm assembly off the machine if it is bent and find out where it need correction. Maybe after all of this you will determine it is not really bent at all. It takes a pretty good hit to bent that kind of metal part. I have had bent and damaged reel tables on those buy never a bent Pinch Roller arm yet.
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Sam Palermo, BSEE, past Broadcast Engineer
Skywave Tape Deck Repair- Chicago area
(630)616-0932 Office/ 708-334-2260 Cell, E mail:skywavebe@sbcglobal.net
Past Teac/Tascam Lead Service Technician at Chicago Factory Service still doing repairs.
http://www.thumbtack.com/il/bensenvi...tascam-repairs
Need Tape? http://www.splicit.com/index.html, The BEST SM are from Stereomanuals.com!

Last edited by Skywavebe; 05-12-2012 at 02:34 PM.
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  #19  
Old 05-12-2012, 02:55 PM
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I'd be surprised if the shaft is bent, but the steel arm could bend relatively easily. Since you've got it apart, take a caliper and measure the distance between the shaft and capstan at the top and bottom. The measurements will be the same if it's not bent.

While you've got the caliper out, measure diameter on both sides of the pinchroller. Again they should be the same.
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Old 05-12-2012, 04:23 PM
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The pinch roller has a bearing inside. The one that came with the unit is totally gooey. will send it over to terrysrollers to fix it. So i am using the pinch roller of my other TSR-8 on the meantime. Also found that it is the same roller as of the Tascam 42B, same part number, so i tried that one too. I measured the pinch roller and the diameter is the same on both ends. The tilt is observed with the pinch roller disengaged from the capstan. So not looking like an uneven rubber wear or bent bearing axle.

The pinch roller shaft is very short and thick (10mm) so i am sure the pinch roller shaft is not bent. There is some play/wiggle in the arm coming from the pivot, but i checked my other TSR-8 and it is the same. I think the problem is the arm angle, being slightly bent or some sort of adjustment at the pivot.

Is it possible that there is dry lubricant in the pivot that could be forcing it to the angle ?

Next i will remove the arm to check it out. I wonder if what is bent is the arm itself or the pivot.

thanks
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