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  #1  
Old 11-25-2017, 08:15 AM
SpaceBeach SpaceBeach is offline
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Cassette saturation setup question.

Hello Tapeheads!

Nice forum!


I have some questions about cassette tape saturation.

My studio project is as follows :

I want to record sub bass onto cassette and saturate it, get hairy even harmonies.

About this i have the following questions.

1. What type of cassette/brand should i look for that handles low frequency & saturation best.

So far ive heard that Type I Normal Bias, suits this purpose best. But there are hundreds of NOS brands.


2. What type of 3-head cassette deck should i look for?

Ive heard that it should be a Three Head Machine with
adjustable bias (ideas on biasing tape to get good saturation). Different saturation on different decks, or is it all about the heads?

The fact that im working with 20-50Hz i guess i need a deck that can handle those frequencies.


3. Does NR(on/off)affect sub bass even harmonies? And in what way?

Does tape noise itself mix with the sub bass, blending/affecting 2nd or 3rd harmonies?

4. Is there a cassette walkman that has and can record FM radio while listening? (odd question i know).


5. Noisiest cassette type/deck you know about? Type I?

Looking for ways to get warm cassette noise on a different project.


Last and probably weirdest question, (experimentalism).

What type of cassette tape material would rust/degray/ slowly in water generating interesting effects when rolled back on to tape and played. Iron/Ferro tape? How does water affect iron oxide tape? Any experience?






=).

Last edited by SpaceBeach; 11-25-2017 at 08:34 AM.
  #2  
Old 11-25-2017, 08:49 AM
MagneticBlood's Avatar
MagneticBlood MagneticBlood is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceBeach View Post
Hello Tapeheads!

Nice forum!


I have some questions about cassette tape saturation.

My studio project is as follows :

I want to record sub bass onto cassette and saturate it, get hairy even harmonies.

About this i have the following questions.

1. What type of cassette/brand should i look for that handles low frequency & saturation best.

So far ive heard that Type I Normal Bias, suits this purpose best. But there are hundreds of NOS brands.


2. What type of 3-head cassette deck should i look for?

Ive heard that it should be a Three Head Machine with
adjustable bias (ideas on biasing tape to get good saturation). Different saturation on different decks, or is it all about the heads?

The fact that im working with 20-50Hz i guess i need a deck that can handle those frequencies.


3. Does NR(on/off)affect sub bass even harmonies? And in what way?

Does tape noise itself mix with the sub bass, blending/affecting 2nd or 3rd harmonies?

4. Is there a cassette walkman that has and can record FM radio while listening? (odd question i know).


5. Noisiest cassette type/deck you know about? Type I?

Looking for ways to get warm cassette noise on a different project.


Last and probably weirdest question, (experimentalism).

What type of cassette tape material would rust/degray/ slowly in water generating interesting effects when rolled back on to tape and played. Iron/Ferro tape? How does water affect iron oxide tape? Any experience?






=).
Hello, welcome

My opinion is that better performer for bass is indeed FE cassette. Will accept serious bass before saturation occurs. A deck that support well Bass is, from my experience Nakamichi 680ZX. You have the opportunity to play with half speed and full speed, also good investment of your money,not cheap, tough. Will play from 10-15Hz so np handling 20 Hz. About Personal Cassette Recorder, almost any Aiwa recorder will record from radio if you want, like Aiwa HS JX303 for example and many other. Of course , there are Sony Walkman also, but cannot remember right now. About interaction of water with cassette, I can say that I guess nobody here did that tests as afraid of ruin tapes, also heads, transport. Capstan can rust and this could be a problem for 'Tech Pet' lovers. Also another interaction I know personally is that a tape that encounter water will soon be ruined by fungi, not to be eaten.
__________________
Walkman and Cassette players|recorders restoring and collecting.
  #3  
Old 11-25-2017, 09:00 AM
A.N.T.'s Avatar
A.N.T. A.N.T. is offline
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Location: Cheshire UK
Posts: 3,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceBeach View Post
Hello Tapeheads!

Nice forum!


I have some questions about cassette tape saturation.

My studio project is as follows :

I want to record sub bass onto cassette and saturate it, get hairy even harmonies.

About this i have the following questions.

1. What type of cassette/brand should i look for that handles low frequency & saturation best.

So far ive heard that Type I Normal Bias, suits this purpose best. But there are hundreds of NOS brands.


2. What type of 3-head cassette deck should i look for?

Ive heard that it should be a Three Head Machine with
adjustable bias (ideas on biasing tape to get good saturation). Different saturation on different decks, or is it all about the heads?

The fact that im working with 20-50Hz i guess i need a deck that can handle those frequencies.


3. Does NR(on/off)affect sub bass even harmonies? And in what way?

Does tape noise itself mix with the sub bass, blending/affecting 2nd or 3rd harmonies?

4. Is there a cassette walkman that has and can record FM radio while listening? (odd question i know).


5. Noisiest cassette type/deck you know about? Type I?

Looking for ways to get warm cassette noise on a different project.


Last and probably weirdest question, (experimentalism).

What type of cassette tape material would rust/degray/ slowly in water generating interesting effects when rolled back on to tape and played. Iron/Ferro tape? How does water affect iron oxide tape? Any experience?






=).
Hi and welcome to Tapeheads!

1) You can have a look at my measurements of various cassettes.

2) You need a deck that can handle high levels without clipping. I would suggest the Tascam 122mkII (NOT mkIII !) .

3) There is such a thing as the modulation noise and it will depend on the bass overload. You can reduce it considerably by a good LPF on the deck's output (say, removing everything above 300-400 Hz). NR won't help. IMHO, and could easily make things worse.

4) I think the answer is yes, but I can not remember exact models from the top of my head.

5) The noisiest tape is a cheap Type I, however the character of the noise would depend on a particular tape make/type. It is easy to get a noisier recording just by lowering the recording level.

Sorry, no information on the last question.

Cheers

Alex
  #4  
Old 11-25-2017, 09:32 AM
SpaceBeach SpaceBeach is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.N.T. View Post
My opinion is that better performer for bass is indeed FE cassette.
Ok, Thanks. Just need to find out what brands that i should go for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.N.T. View Post
Nakamichi 680ZX
Will have a look at this one, Tascam too. Not clipping is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.N.T. View Post
You have the opportunity to play with half speed and full speed
Ok, sounds cool. How does half speed / full speed affect sub bass responce/saturation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.N.T. View Post
Will play from 10-15Hz so np handling 20 Hz
How much does age/hours affect low frequencies when it comes to a cassette deck? I guess its also important having it serviced and demagnetized?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.N.T. View Post
any Aiwa recorder will record from radio if you want, like Aiwa HS JX303 for example
So i guess most walkmans with radio has this function. Cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.N.T. View Post
I guess nobody here did that tests as afraid of ruin tapes, also heads, transport. Capstan can rust and this could be a problem for 'Tech Pet' lovers.
But if one lets the tape dry before winding it up?

Anyone with some information about which cassette tape types that has particles that could be "slightly ruined"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.N.T. View Post
Also another interaction I know personally is that a tape that encounter water will soon be ruined by fungi, not to be eaten.
Fungi? lol. Iron/Bacteria eating fungi. Some chemist/professor maybe could get into what happens to Ferro tape in water and how rust/bacteria/fungi affects the rust/water process in time.

Last edited by SpaceBeach; 11-25-2017 at 09:45 AM.
  #5  
Old 11-25-2017, 09:40 AM
SpaceBeach SpaceBeach is offline
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Posts: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by A.N.T. View Post
Hi and welcome to Tapeheads!
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.N.T. View Post
1) You can have a look at my measurements of various cassettes.
Will do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.N.T. View Post
2) You need a deck that can handle high levels without clipping. I would suggest the Tascam 122mkII (NOT mkIII !)
Heard about this deck before. Seems legit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.N.T. View Post
3) There is such a thing as the modulation noise and it will depend on the bass overload. You can reduce it considerably by a good LPF on the deck's output (say, removing everything above 300-400 Hz). NR won't help. IMHO, and could easily make things worse
Modulation noise? Interesting. Any source on this? I like noise if it blends with the sub bass harmonies. No noise reduction here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.N.T. View Post
5) The noisiest tape is a cheap Type I, however the character of the noise would depend on a particular tape make/type. It is easy to get a noisier recording just by lowering the recording level
Interesting, you mean sub bass could affect/get modulation noise by lowering recording level, with room for both noise and sub bass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.N.T. View Post
Sorry, no information on the last question
Thx anyway.

Last edited by SpaceBeach; 11-25-2017 at 09:47 AM.
  #6  
Old 11-25-2017, 10:17 AM
A.N.T.'s Avatar
A.N.T. A.N.T. is offline
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Location: Cheshire UK
Posts: 3,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceBeach View Post
Modulation noise? Interesting. Any source on this? I like noise if it blends with the sub bass harmonies. No noise reduction here.


Interesting, you mean sub bass could affect/get modulation noise by lowering recording level, with room for both noise and sub bass.
Modulation noise is added on the signal and on some occasions can be heard clearly on loud bass notes.

With a good deck you can have additional tuning possibilities, for example by lowering the bias you can get the tape to saturate earlier and noisier, with a different distortion structure.

Cheers

Alex
  #7  
Old 11-25-2017, 10:36 AM
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SR2245 SR2245 is offline
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Most generic Type I tapes don't show better bass performance than good Type II tapes.
But there are some high quality type I tapes with very good bass performance. Some of them should be:

BASF Ferro Maxima
Denon DX 3
Denon DX 4
Fuji FR I Super
Maxel XLI-S
TDK AD
TDK AD-X
TDK AR
TDK AR-X
Sony HF-S
Sony HF-ES
Sony ES I
  #8  
Old 11-26-2017, 04:21 AM
SpaceBeach SpaceBeach is offline
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I think ill look for a Tascam 122 Mkii.

The ones ive seen so far look heavily used.

Prices vary between 250-1000USD.
  #9  
Old 11-26-2017, 04:23 AM
SpaceBeach SpaceBeach is offline
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Posts: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by SR2245 View Post
Most generic Type I tapes don't show better bass performance than good Type II tapes.
But there are some high quality type I tapes with very good bass performance. Some of them should be:

BASF Ferro Maxima
Denon DX 3
Denon DX 4
Fuji FR I Super
Maxel XLI-S
TDK AD
TDK AD-X
TDK AR
TDK AR-X
Sony HF-S
Sony HF-ES
Sony ES I

Thanks for the input!
  #10  
Old 11-26-2017, 05:47 AM
tapeizer tapeizer is offline
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About water...
prolonged exposure in drinking water affects ferric type tapes most. It appears as corrosion, loss of high frequencies, sound becomes muddy. The basses though depending of the tape remain mostly unaffected. Avoid of using such tapes in your deck
  #11  
Old 11-26-2017, 06:17 AM
A.N.T.'s Avatar
A.N.T. A.N.T. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceBeach View Post
I think ill look for a Tascam 122 Mkii.

The ones ive seen so far look heavily used.

Prices vary between 250-1000USD.
Unless you buy a deck properly serviced from one of reputable technicians you should also be prepared to pay for such a service. As long as the head is OK on these decks, the rest usually can be fixed. It also useful to do a couple of simple mods on the 122mkII.

Cheers

Alex
  #12  
Old 11-26-2017, 06:55 AM
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Red_OX Red_OX is offline
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Smile

Why don't you just get one of those horrible 1970/80s EQ units and ruin the sound via that...
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God bless Alan...
  #13  
Old 11-26-2017, 08:47 AM
SpaceBeach SpaceBeach is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tapeizer View Post
About water...
prolonged exposure in drinking water affects ferric type tapes most. It appears as corrosion, loss of high frequencies, sound becomes muddy. The basses though depending of the tape remain mostly unaffected. Avoid of using such tapes in your deck
Thanks for the input.

Thats what i thought. How long do you think it would take before corrosion starts?

Saltwater seems to make iron rust more quickly due to electrochemical reactions.

Chloride too, as well as PH level. Minerals probably affects the corrosion process too.

Tape itself is coated rusted ferric oxide, but what is the coating solution made of? and how long until it lets the metal corrosion process start. I guess i need to try different tapes.


Wikipedia :

Other degrading solutions are sulfur dioxide in water and carbon dioxide in water. Under these corrosive conditions, iron hydroxide species are formed. Unlike ferrous oxides, the hydroxides do not adhere to the bulk metal. As they form and flake off from the surface, fresh iron is exposed, and the corrosion process continues until either all of the iron is consumed or all of the oxygen, water, carbon dioxide, or sulfur dioxide in the system are removed or consumed.[4]

The rate of corrosion is affected by water and accelerated by electrolytes, as illustrated by the effects of road salt on the corrosion of automobiles. The key reaction is the reduction of oxygen:
O2 + 4 e− + 2 H2O → 4 OH−
Because it forms hydroxide ions, this process is strongly affected by the presence of acid. Indeed, the corrosion of most metals by oxygen is accelerated at low pH. Providing the electrons for the above reaction is the oxidation of iron that may be described as follows:
Fe → Fe2+ + 2 e−
The following redox reaction also occurs in the presence of water and is crucial to the formation of rust:
4Fe2+ + O2 → 4Fe3+ + 2O2−
In addition, the following multistep acid–base reactions affect the course of rust formation:
Fe2+ + 2 H2O ⇌ Fe(OH)2 + 2 H+
Fe3+ + 3 H2O ⇌ Fe(OH)3 + 3 H+
as do the following dehydration equilibria:
Fe(OH)2 ⇌ FeO +  H2O
Fe(OH)3 ⇌ FeO(OH) +  H2O
2FeO(OH) ⇌ Fe2O3 +  H2O

From the above equations, it is also seen that the corrosion products are dictated by the availability of water and oxygen. With limited dissolved oxygen, iron(II)-containing materials are favoured, including FeO and black lodestone or magnetite (Fe3O4). High oxygen concentrations favour ferric materials with the nominal formulae Fe(OH)3−xO x⁄2. The nature of rust changes with time, reflecting the slow rates of the reactions of solids.
Furthermore, these complex processes are affected by the presence of other ions, such as Ca2+, which serve as electrolytes which accelerate rust formation, or combine with the hydroxides and oxides of iron to precipitate a variety of Ca, Fe, O, OH species.
Onset of rusting can also be detected in laboratory with the use of ferroxyl indicator solution. The solution detects both Fe2+ ions and hydroxyl ions. Formation of Fe2+ ions and hydroxyl ions are indicated by blue and pink patches respectively.

From Sciencing.com :
Salt Water and Metal
The combination of moisture, oxygen and salt, especially sodium chloride, is more damaging to metal than just rust. This combination corrodes, or eats away at, the metal, weakening it and causing it to fall apart. Salt water corrodes metal five times faster than fresh water does and the salty, humid ocean air causes metal to corrode 10 times faster than air with a normal amount of humidity would. Bacteria in ocean water also consumes iron and what is excreted turns to rust.
Electrochemical Corrosion
One form of corrosion that occurs when metal and salt water get together is called electrochemical corrosion. Metal ions dissolve in water and salt water conducts electricity and contains ions, which attract ions from other compounds. During electrochemical corrosion, electrons from other compounds are attracted to the metallic ions. Salt water attacks the metal and corrosion occurs.
Anaerobic Corrosion
Anaerobic corrosion is the second type of corrosion that occurs when metal is exposed to salt water for an extended period of time. Deposits that contain sulfates surround the metal as it sits in salt water. Hydrogen sulfide is produced which corrodes metals. At the same time, bacteria grows in the salt water which used hydrogen to corrode the metal as well. Between the ions, sulfates and bacteria, metal is attacked from all angles when it is in salt water.


From Lenntech.com :

Solubility of iron and iron compounds
Elementary iron dissolves in water under normal conditions. Many iron compounds share this characteristic. Naturally occurring iron oxide, iron hydroxide, iron carbide and iron penta carbonyl are water insoluble. The water solubility of some iron compounds increases at lower pH values.
Other iron compounds may be more water soluble than the examples mentioned above. Iron carbonate has a water solubility of 60 mg/L, iron sulphide of 6 mg/L, and iron vitriol even of 295 g/L. Many iron chelation complexes are water soluble.
Usually there is a difference between water soluble Fe2+ compounds and generally water insoluble Fe3+ compounds. The latter are only water soluble in strongly acidic solutions, but water solubility increases when these are reduced to Fe2+ under certain conditions.

Read more: https://www.lenntech.com/periodic/wa...#ixzz4zYGwoEf8
  #14  
Old 11-27-2017, 05:53 PM
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Phonatacid Phonatacid is offline
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Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceBeach View Post
Hello Tapeheads!

Nice forum!


I have some questions about cassette tape saturation.

My studio project is as follows :

I want to record sub bass onto cassette and saturate it, get hairy even harmonies.

About this i have the following questions.

1. What type of cassette/brand should i look for that handles low frequency & saturation best.

So far ive heard that Type I Normal Bias, suits this purpose best. But there are hundreds of NOS brands.


2. What type of 3-head cassette deck should i look for?

Ive heard that it should be a Three Head Machine with
adjustable bias (ideas on biasing tape to get good saturation). Different saturation on different decks, or is it all about the heads?

The fact that im working with 20-50Hz i guess i need a deck that can handle those frequencies.


3. Does NR(on/off)affect sub bass even harmonies? And in what way?

Does tape noise itself mix with the sub bass, blending/affecting 2nd or 3rd harmonies?

4. Is there a cassette walkman that has and can record FM radio while listening? (odd question i know).


5. Noisiest cassette type/deck you know about? Type I?

Looking for ways to get warm cassette noise on a different project.


Last and probably weirdest question, (experimentalism).

What type of cassette tape material would rust/degray/ slowly in water generating interesting effects when rolled back on to tape and played. Iron/Ferro tape? How does water affect iron oxide tape? Any experience?






=).
None. I know the sound you're after, and if you're doing this in a recording studio context you'll only be disappointed with cassette and that saturated sound you want with the 2nd order harmonics and so forth. You'll really only be able to get it from an actual tape machine and hitting it hard. Or get a Burl B2 Bomber ADC and you can get it from that by hitting it hard. Cassette? Nope.
  #15  
Old 11-27-2017, 10:41 PM
tapeizer tapeizer is offline
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Posts: 8
I didn't try salt water. Prolonged exposure I meant 25 days. Drinking water was from sealed bottle. Before playing the cassette's shells were open to dry the tape inside. Regarding minerals I observed calcium residuals on the edges of tape bulk which made me to give my aiwa a good cleaning
  #16  
Old 11-28-2017, 05:07 AM
SpaceBeach SpaceBeach is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phonatacid View Post
None. I know the sound you're after, and if you're doing this in a recording studio context you'll only be disappointed with cassette and that saturated sound you want with the 2nd order harmonics and so forth. You'll really only be able to get it from an actual tape machine and hitting it hard. Or get a Burl B2 Bomber ADC and you can get it from that by hitting it hard. Cassette? Nope.


You are saying that cassette doesnt creates no good sub bass harmonics, or slim to none?

Could you recommend a reel for this? You got any sound example?

By hitting it hard you mean?
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