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  #1  
Old 12-19-2012, 04:00 PM
Dazen1 Dazen1 is offline
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HX-S, HD-8 and more! (Moved from other thread).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockSolid87 View Post
Any comments?
Yep! I love the TDK HX-S.

A truly esoteric tape.
  #2  
Old 12-19-2012, 06:27 PM
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HX-S, HD-8 and more! (Moved from other thread).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazen1 View Post
Yep! I love the TDK HX-S.

A truly esoteric tape.
If you like those you should try Denon HD-8. They're very similar metal particle Type IIs.

Not specifically trying to plug the tapes I'm selling, but it works out that way sometimes :-)
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  #3  
Old 12-19-2012, 06:55 PM
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Link brings up no tapes you are selling. I didn't know HD-8 was a metal particle Type II. I may have some, I'll have to check. I only have 1 sealed HX-S.
  #4  
Old 12-19-2012, 07:23 PM
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I absolutely loved the sound of HX-S. Interestingly, I was at the "debut event" TDK put on for the tape when it was introduced. And HD-8 is indeed another Type II metal and is a quite superb tape.
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I RESTORE VINTAGE AUDIO AND VIDEO GEAR. Master technician for Concept, Quadraflex, Calibre, Pioneer and Sony. Endorsed by Richard Schram for Concept product restoration. Factory technician for both Yamaha and JVC. Sonics consultant for Denon. Pacific Stereo store manager, service manager, Central Service lead tech, liquidator at our demise. Pacific Stereo curator. Infinity IRS dealer. Music buyer for one of the first CD retailers in the USA. Authorized servicer for virtually every brand on the planet at one time or another. Music addict. Mastering & recording engineer, weaned on a Neve (no other console sounds like a Neve!). Industry-respected ears. Head Tapehead.

Need vintage audio & video repair and restoration, or unobtanium semiconductors and parts? Ask me! And do visit the website: pacificstereo.net
  #5  
Old 12-19-2012, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perry View Post
Link brings up no tapes you are selling. I didn't know HD-8 was a metal particle Type II. I may have some, I'll have to check. I only have 1 sealed HX-S.
My eBay name is the-mad-buyer. I checked the link and it works for me...?

I love the HD8 because it can take +6 to +8 without distortion when calibrated. It's a hot tape!
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  #6  
Old 12-19-2012, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shotwell View Post
If you like those you should try Denon HD-8. They're very similar metal particle Type IIs.

Not specifically trying to plug the tapes I'm selling, but it works out that way sometimes :-)
Realistic (Supertape I think) had a metal particle Type II. I have one of them somewhere. I'll dig it out and see what it does

Are the Denon HD-8's more available than the TDK HX-S?
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  #7  
Old 12-19-2012, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmdropout View Post
Thanks for sharing. A JVC KD V6 is a permanent fixture in my system, so I found your impressions interesting.

I would also be interested in seeing (or reading about) the years of the tapes that you used.

On the type I front, I have found the early 90s TDK to be really superb on my KD V6. Was listening to Motorhead's Inferno I recorded on one the other night and it sounded phenomenal. I'd even say better than the CD could ever sound to my simple old ears.

But reading your impressions has inspired me to unwrap a Fuji I have and record some material on it to see how it sounds next time I sit down and do some recording.
Sure thing! I'll get those pictures up tonight! I should note that the DR-I I used and was impressed with was one that was still "Made in Japan." I believe this one is from the early 90's. The later/last DR-I tapes were "Made in China" and I'm not sure how those fair against the Japan made ones. I have some of the China ones somewhere, so I'll have to look for one and compare them.
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Last edited by RockSolid87; 12-19-2012 at 09:49 PM.
  #8  
Old 12-19-2012, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockSolid87 View Post
Are the Denon HD-8's more available than the TDK HX-S?
Definitely, yes.
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  #9  
Old 12-20-2012, 09:20 AM
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The Realistic Type II metal was sourced by Memorex, and I believe was the same tape as their CDX-II.
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I RESTORE VINTAGE AUDIO AND VIDEO GEAR. Master technician for Concept, Quadraflex, Calibre, Pioneer and Sony. Endorsed by Richard Schram for Concept product restoration. Factory technician for both Yamaha and JVC. Sonics consultant for Denon. Pacific Stereo store manager, service manager, Central Service lead tech, liquidator at our demise. Pacific Stereo curator. Infinity IRS dealer. Music buyer for one of the first CD retailers in the USA. Authorized servicer for virtually every brand on the planet at one time or another. Music addict. Mastering & recording engineer, weaned on a Neve (no other console sounds like a Neve!). Industry-respected ears. Head Tapehead.

Need vintage audio & video repair and restoration, or unobtanium semiconductors and parts? Ask me! And do visit the website: pacificstereo.net
  #10  
Old 12-20-2012, 09:50 AM
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As for all of those that like HX-S tape there was only one place making them and that was TDK. So all the others Denon and whatever else, they are all the same tape with different shells on them. I think I have a Teac version of the tape as well. This tape was produced to allow those people with Chrome decks to use metal tape without having a Metal tape deck. At the time Metal was finally perfected so that it did not catch fire there were a lot of good decks out there that could not use it. The Teac C-1 had a modification to allow it to use Metal tape and I did some of those mods.
I wish I could find a boat load of HX-S as I would buy it at not collector prices. Also NOT because it records at +8. When I see that I know what type I am dealing with.
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  #11  
Old 12-20-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywavebe View Post
This tape was produced to allow those people with Chrome decks to use metal tape without having a Metal tape deck.
Probably more accurate to state is was that hybrids were introduced to allow consumers to reap the benefits of an improved type II formulation that included metal particles and the performance gains which it brought to the table - without the expense of full fledged metals - regardless of the deck employed.

Last edited by BlazeES; 12-20-2012 at 10:59 AM.
  #12  
Old 12-20-2012, 11:39 AM
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I don't recall HX-S being significantly cheaper than MA. In 1985, the suggeted retail price of an MA-90 was $6.99. HX-S was breakthrough technology that allowed the zillions of non-metal capable decks (like the CT-F1000 and C-1) to use metal tape and obtain its performance benefits. If anyone here has a price sheet, it would be fun to know what it's retail price point was.
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I RESTORE VINTAGE AUDIO AND VIDEO GEAR. Master technician for Concept, Quadraflex, Calibre, Pioneer and Sony. Endorsed by Richard Schram for Concept product restoration. Factory technician for both Yamaha and JVC. Sonics consultant for Denon. Pacific Stereo store manager, service manager, Central Service lead tech, liquidator at our demise. Pacific Stereo curator. Infinity IRS dealer. Music buyer for one of the first CD retailers in the USA. Authorized servicer for virtually every brand on the planet at one time or another. Music addict. Mastering & recording engineer, weaned on a Neve (no other console sounds like a Neve!). Industry-respected ears. Head Tapehead.

Need vintage audio & video repair and restoration, or unobtanium semiconductors and parts? Ask me! And do visit the website: pacificstereo.net

Last edited by Pacific Stereo; 12-20-2012 at 11:41 AM. Reason: I have GOT to replace this keyboard.
  #13  
Old 12-20-2012, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacific Stereo View Post
I don't recall HX-S being significantly cheaper than MA. In 1985, the suggeted retail price of an MA-90 was $6.99. HX-S was breakthrough technology that allowed the zillions of non-metal capable decks (like the CT-F1000 and C-1) to use metal tape and obtain its performance benefits. If anyone here has a price sheet, it would be fun to know what it's retail price point was.
Where you in Sales at Pacific Stereo?
MSRP on tape was a huge misnomer outside of the boutique environment.
Pacific Stereo was definitely a boutique store trying to profit on accessories - like tape.

The HX-S to my recollection ran about a buck less per MA and MA was not considered an expensive metal btw. What's more significant is the price delta between, say, Blackwatch 2020's (another hybrid) and competing type IV's, just like the HD-8 (yet another hybrid) which was markedly cheaper than HD-M's. I also remember seeing HX-S two-fers at Walgreen's, Sav-On and other drug stores, you know - hanging in the end caps in those poly pouches, relatively cheap.

Last edited by BlazeES; 12-20-2012 at 11:57 AM.
  #14  
Old 12-20-2012, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywavebe View Post
As for all of those that like HX-S tape there was only one place making them and that was TDK.
^is it a first hand information?
this would mean T-Y's EM-X cassettes used the very same tape as HX-S.
  #15  
Old 12-20-2012, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlazeES View Post
Where you in Sales at Pacific Stereo?
I guess you've never read my signature. I stopped paying attention to volume at about 1.5 million.

Quote:
MSRP on tape was a huge misnomer outside of the boutique environment. Pacific Stereo was definitely a boutique store trying to profit on accessories - like tape.
88 stores nationwide is a boutique? Uh, I'm sorry, but at one time,we were the nation's largest retailer of electronics. Generally, we almost never sold tape at retail. We typically sold it at 10 over or at cost. While we certainly did make money on things like Discwashers, tape was almost always near cost, at least in all the stores I worked at or ran. EDIT: My book says our "everyday" price on these was $4.88 (in my stores, they were lower) and cost was $3.33.

Quote:
The HX-S to my recollection ran about a buck less per MA and MA was not considered an expensive metal btw. What's more significant is the price delta between, say, Blackwatch 2020's (another hybrid) and competing type IV's, just like the HD-8 (yet another hybrid) which was markedly cheaper than HD-M's. I also remember seeing HX-S two-fers at Walgreen's, Sav-On and other drug stores, you know - hanging in the end caps in those poly pouches, relatively cheap.
I guess I'm confused. I was talking about HX-S vs the mainstream metal offering from the same manufacturer. At a buck less per tape (presuming that's correct, I'm still not sure), that's not significantly cheaper. HX-S did not catch on, unfortunately, and I wouldn't have been surprised to see it blown out at other retailers. Sad, really. Great-sounding stuff.
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I RESTORE VINTAGE AUDIO AND VIDEO GEAR. Master technician for Concept, Quadraflex, Calibre, Pioneer and Sony. Endorsed by Richard Schram for Concept product restoration. Factory technician for both Yamaha and JVC. Sonics consultant for Denon. Pacific Stereo store manager, service manager, Central Service lead tech, liquidator at our demise. Pacific Stereo curator. Infinity IRS dealer. Music buyer for one of the first CD retailers in the USA. Authorized servicer for virtually every brand on the planet at one time or another. Music addict. Mastering & recording engineer, weaned on a Neve (no other console sounds like a Neve!). Industry-respected ears. Head Tapehead.

Need vintage audio & video repair and restoration, or unobtanium semiconductors and parts? Ask me! And do visit the website: pacificstereo.net

Last edited by Pacific Stereo; 12-20-2012 at 03:35 PM.
  #16  
Old 12-20-2012, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sh101 View Post
^is it a first hand information?
this would mean T-Y's EM-X cassettes used the very same tape as HX-S.
Keep in mind that making a new formula of tape is a major cost investment and some sly by night outfit such as Radio Shack is not going to pen up a plant to make a first class tape like HX-S. I thought it was strange that such high grade tapes of newr the same bias characteristic came from other places such as Denon. I don't think Denon ever made tape themselves as it most of the time has TDK formula in it of one type or another. In the tape deck business you run across certain representatives that also represent the tape and other types of equipment such as Accuphase. This is where some info was obtained. It only stands to reason that TDK came out with this tape first and then either sold pancakes or formula right to other companies but I suspect that these other companies would just have TDK pack their tape into other shells ordered by the thousands. TDK was after the recovery of cost of opening up another formula line of tape and they did not vare who they sold their tape to just so they moved a lot of it. The other manufacturers of tape did not come up with the same type formula which tells me they did not have the formula so while Hitachi/Maxell, 3M and Fuji did not have the HXS formula the smaller companies who did not make their own tape did have HXS tape as called something else. Then if at Teac I wanted to see if the tape was the same tape of something like it I would compare it characteristics in a adjustable deck.
If the tapes did the exact same with no adjustment needed, the tape came from the same place. If there was some variation then it could have been made by someone else. Memorex may have made some of it's tape but I have never seen anything of their that was worth anything. Their commercials were all lies and hype. I don't care if you can break a glass with your tape- that has to do with massive volume nothing to do with tape. Probably DAK tape could do it too and 160 dB.
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  #17  
Old 12-20-2012, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywavebe View Post
Keep in mind that making a new formula of tape is a major cost investment and some sly by night outfit such as Radio Shack is not going to pen up a plant to make a first class tape like HX-S. I thought it was strange that such high grade tapes of newr the same bias characteristic came from other places such as Denon. I don't think Denon ever made tape themselves as it most of the time has TDK formula in it of one type or another. In the tape deck business you run across certain representatives that also represent the tape and other types of equipment such as Accuphase. This is where some info was obtained. It only stands to reason that TDK came out with this tape first and then either sold pancakes or formula right to other companies but I suspect that these other companies would just have TDK pack their tape into other shells ordered by the thousands. TDK was after the recovery of cost of opening up another formula line of tape and they did not vare who they sold their tape to just so they moved a lot of it. The other manufacturers of tape did not come up with the same type formula which tells me they did not have the formula so while Hitachi/Maxell, 3M and Fuji did not have the HXS formula the smaller companies who did not make their own tape did have HXS tape as called something else. Then if at Teac I wanted to see if the tape was the same tape of something like it I would compare it characteristics in a adjustable deck.
If the tapes did the exact same with no adjustment needed, the tape came from the same place. If there was some variation then it could have been made by someone else. Memorex may have made some of it's tape but I have never seen anything of their that was worth anything. Their commercials were all lies and hype. I don't care if you can break a glass with your tape- that has to do with massive volume nothing to do with tape. Probably DAK tape could do it too and 160 dB.
True breaking the glass has nothing to do with the tape as long as the resonant frequency of the glass is in the range of the tape and playback equipment and speakers etc.
When I worked at Musicraft we got bored one day and tried breaking glass with audio. We found if you took a light bulb and put it in close between 2 Piezo tweeters and swept them with a signal generator you could break them rather easy without a lot of decibels. As soon as you got that resonant frequency the glass would literally vibrate itself to destruction. It was in a midrange frequency that would do it also so even a voice quality tape would be able to do it. We never tried something thicker like a wine glass but I bet it wouldn't take much either.


Dave

Last edited by DaveInVA; 12-20-2012 at 04:54 PM.
  #18  
Old 12-20-2012, 04:59 PM
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asking because taiyo-yuden was a major japanese supplier of raw materials used in tape coating.
i would sooner believe it was tdk who bought their experimental IV-II formulation rather than the other way round.

"both" tapes were introduced in/or around 1986 and this won't make it any easier to find out who was first,
ive tested the EM-X first and fell in love with that strangely "electric" tape immediately - i sold every single "sought after" tdk tape to make room for basf, That's and sony's.

Last edited by sh101; 12-20-2012 at 05:07 PM.
  #19  
Old 12-20-2012, 05:17 PM
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BlazeES BlazeES is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacific Stereo View Post
I guess you've never read my signature. I stopped paying attention to volume at about 1.5 million.

88 stores nationwide is a boutique? Uh, I'm sorry, but at one time,we were the nation's largest retailer of electronics. Generally, we almost never sold tape at retail. We typically sold it at 10 over or at cost. While we certainly did make money on things like Discwashers, tape was almost always near cost, at least in all the stores I worked at or ran. EDIT: My book says our "everyday" price on these was $4.88 (in my stores, they were lower) and cost was $3.33.

I guess I'm confused. I was talking about HX-S vs the mainstream metal offering from the same manufacturer. At a buck less per tape (presuming that's correct, I'm still not sure), that's not significantly cheaper. HX-S did not catch on, unfortunately, and I wouldn't have been surprised to see it blown out at other retailers. Sad, really. Great-sounding stuff.
Right, HX-S vs MA - that was covered; as were my other supporting type II hybrid examples.
We tend to expect that kind of discussion these days, you know, with broader comparison of facts.
Confusion? Not sure why.

Did you take any economics in college Pacific?
If you don't think a dollar lower against a basis price of say (rounding up for simplicity sake) 5 bucks isn't "significantly lower", you have some serious Business Econ 101 brushing up to do.
That's a difference of 20% off the top-line.

Switching to the topic of "88 stores", that is boutique. Sorry your ego got bruised on that one. Even back then most people shopped for their electronics at major, large scale retail establishments and appliance stores.
Pacific Stereo was smaller than many on that basis - in terms of revenue and overheads. Boutique it was and something to be proud of. Most specialty stores in most product markets are "boutique".
Federated alone ate Pacific Stereo's lunch because they weren't boutique. Tower Records alone sold more blank media in one average month than Pacific Stereo ever sold in any given fiscal year and they had fewer brick & mortars.
Tower was also boutique and they were proud of it.

And lastly, "10 over or at cost" on tape and accessories? That just proves to me you weren't involved at the level you would have most of us believe.
Either that, or you didn't understand sales percentage calculations. I realize that you stated "your store" sold for lower, but:

From a margin stand point,
"$4.88 and cost was $3.33."
That's approx. 46% profit margin.


So I'm just going to come right out and say it - credibility lost. Pacific Stereo's (the store) channel cost for blank media was predicated on the sales volume, no different than anywhere else, so perhaps in some cases you weren't making more than 10% margin or any margin at all because you weren't selling jack - thereby not earning the customary discounts. Conceivable but highly unlikely. The distribution channel layers weren't that complicated back then and the discount tables worked off of "overall" volumes of product groupings - like sundries. Sounds like a failure of your buyers if you ask me (if true), but then again - highly unlikely...but that's incidental - their (P-Stereo's) prices on tape were generally always at MSRP - that's why most people shopped elsewhere for blanks...at least in the Bay Area. I'd think you would have some of that detailed info in all those documents you took with you along the way...as the chain shrank and stores closed down. And back to the credibility thing; if you are who you say you are - nobody in a store management or high level sales position "stops paying attention" to anything, much less "volume"
- to quote your own words.

Is the use of that trademark/logo registered with the State of California, Secretary of State?

Last edited by BlazeES; 12-20-2012 at 07:00 PM.
  #20  
Old 12-20-2012, 07:13 PM
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You know, Blaze, I understand that being contrarian and liking to twist words and ideas is in your nature, but this is ridiculous.

At one time, we were the largest retailer of electronics in the USA. Period. And 88 stores is boutique? I'm sorry, but that's utter nonsense. We had every piece of equipment, every doo-dad and gizmo that the audio aficionado could possibly want, displayed in triplicate. We had manufacturers and reps beating our doors down to get products into our stores, and unless you were Pioneer or Sony, it was a freakin' COUP to accomplish it. We even designed and manufactured our own lines of electronics. Federated didn't do that. Neither did anyone else I can think of. Sheesh, we even got featured in movies. Pacific Stereo was a household word even in states where we didn't have stores. When I (along with a few other folks) liquidated us, we owed Sony more money than most retailers could even dream about selling in a 5-year orgasm.

As far as tape prices, I'm sorry if you're offended by what you think the margins were, but you didn't read what I said. For MA, MSRP was $6.99, our MCP was $4.88 and cost was $3.33. Tower may have well indeed have sold more tape than us, I have no idea. But I can tell you that in my region we shopped them and all of our other competitors to make sure that our pricing was competitive. And again, in my stores, tape was sold at outright cost or ten over. That would be $3.33 or $3.69, for MA. This may surprise you, but we had complete freedom to sell anything for whatever we wanted. And we did not sell other accessories at ten over or at cost. That's not what I said. We boated that stuff for as much as we could.

Can't tell you what was going on in the Bay area for tape pricing. Wasn't my region. Different RM, different world.

Yep, we had competition. I can't tell you who the competitors were in Atlanta, but Federated, University, Leo's and Cal Stereo certainly come to mind for the California region. Of course there were the "boutiques" (ha! Could not resist), as well.

I'm afraid I did not take economics in college. But while I was in college, I was busy making money hand over fist selling stereos and experiencing applied economic miracles each and every day.

You also misunderstood what I said. I stopped paying attention to my cumulative retail volume at $1.5M; the number just didn't matter any more. I have no idea what my career total was.

Quote:
if you are who you say you are
Oh, you got me there. I've made up and perpetuated this online persona in order to... in order to... Hmmm. Let me think about that and get back to you.

And yup, I own the logo (along with a laundry list of other logos, items and intellectual property) that you see here. Hope that's all right with you.

Credibility: Why... I'll let the readers make the call!
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I RESTORE VINTAGE AUDIO AND VIDEO GEAR. Master technician for Concept, Quadraflex, Calibre, Pioneer and Sony. Endorsed by Richard Schram for Concept product restoration. Factory technician for both Yamaha and JVC. Sonics consultant for Denon. Pacific Stereo store manager, service manager, Central Service lead tech, liquidator at our demise. Pacific Stereo curator. Infinity IRS dealer. Music buyer for one of the first CD retailers in the USA. Authorized servicer for virtually every brand on the planet at one time or another. Music addict. Mastering & recording engineer, weaned on a Neve (no other console sounds like a Neve!). Industry-respected ears. Head Tapehead.

Need vintage audio & video repair and restoration, or unobtanium semiconductors and parts? Ask me! And do visit the website: pacificstereo.net

Last edited by Pacific Stereo; 12-20-2012 at 08:09 PM.
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