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  #1  
Old 09-08-2017, 05:32 PM
sonyandredbull sonyandredbull is offline
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Surge Suppressor/UPS for Tape Deck

I currently have my BX300 on a cheap-ish APC surge suppressor. I'm wondering if it would be worth the investment to spent $135 on the cheapest Cyberpower UPS with sine wave output. Can a UPS help prevent damage at all? Or would a better surge suppressor be worthwhile?
  #2  
Old 09-08-2017, 06:18 PM
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TooCool4 TooCool4 is offline
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I think if you are in an area where the power is not clean than the UPS can help clean up the power.

In my area the power supply fluctuates between 230V Ė 239V and it should be 240V, I have just picked up an Emerson Liebert GXT4 3000VA 2700W double conversion UPS to use on my system and I have set the output to 240V. I am just waiting to get 2 80mm quiet case fans to put in it, so itís silent.

I have heard what power conditioners can do on a good system, so itís worth it if the power in your area is not great.

How it works we use them at work for our servers.

The price of this is a fraction of audiophile power conditioners and i think this will do a better job.
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  #3  
Old 09-08-2017, 06:27 PM
sonyandredbull sonyandredbull is offline
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Thanks for the reply. I'd say we see 1-3 dips or brief power drops in a given month. I don't have a gauge for how that might affect an old tape deck.

My budget isn't nearly enough for something like you linked, but I'm considering this:

http://www.microcenter.com/product/3...oax_Protection
  #4  
Old 09-08-2017, 06:47 PM
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Skywavebe Skywavebe is online now
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A little education is need these days as to this subject-

What do I use on my bench and studio? APC 1000VA or 1500VA UPS units.
Why? APC as also used in many many radio stations protect equipment from power outages and also protect against surges and brown outs. Most tape decks are not all that sensitive to power differences as they take what comes in and rectify it to DC voltage right away. Surges in the 300 Vac area are had on a daily basis here in Chicago. They do not hurt most equipment because they are short term- not 3 seconds in duration and the transformer which is an inductor will absorb such a pulse as the inductor is resistive to change- that is why high frequency signals do not like to go through them. Around 4-5AM the power company does switch overs almost every day and if you have a UPS there you will hear it signal a problem it detects and corrects. UPS units have surge protection as well as power replacement operation in them and also up to a $25,000 equipment warranty against damage. The other Cyber companies may not have that and may be a fly by night company. One such worthless company is also located in Chicago and it is known as Tripp lite. I have since dealing with their product have never purchased a product from them as I served as Chief Engineer at 4 stations in Chicago. It was either APC or for larger operations the larger companies that offered refrigerator sized units that used 30 car battery sized battery systems.
Some of them were 6500 watt units that held up studios and a Satellite uplink operations. Some facilities like ESPN Transmitter has two AC feed to the transmitter and a way to switch over to the other one when trouble comes. Then after two minutes of outage the Diesel generator comes on and switches over- keep in mind they not only use 120 Vac but also 3 phase 360 Vac for the transmitter.

Surge suppressors are cheaper as they are nothing but a MOV applied by Chinese construction to a outlet strip and they if they work only protect you one time. The APC will protect you better for 3-5 years before you have to change a battery. Some Smart units allow you to change the battery while in power regular operation- they call these Hot swap units.
This means you can switch the old battery for a new one while on the air with no loss of power and I have done it many times at Moody which had a AM, FM and Satellite Studio operation that I maintained.
You can not go wrong with APC type units- others are less reliable and often fail in shorted periods of time. I have seen it in facilities I have taken over from guys that would just put anything in.
UPS devices do NOT like Vacuum cleaners and the cleaning crew must be made to understand that they do not get plugged in to these power strips used for distributing power from a UPS. Vacuum cleaners should be plugged directly into a wall socket.
My entire bench 2 is on a APC unit. When the power goes out I can still be working with lights down there. I have about 5 UPS units operating.

If the name has cyber in it - it is usually junk. Get APC or the big boys as liebert for the real protection.
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Last edited by Skywavebe; 09-08-2017 at 06:55 PM.
  #5  
Old 09-08-2017, 08:38 PM
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Pentium100 Pentium100 is offline
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There are three types of UPS output waveform: square, modified sine and true sine.

Square wave output is just square wave +220/-220 at 50Hz. It is the cheapest, so you will find it in the lowest grade UPSs. It is unsuitable for motors and transformers, but suitable for older (non-PFC) switching power supplies. Thankfully, modern PC power supplies have Active PFC which may also have problems with square wave, so these UPSs should be less common now.

Modified sine looks like a lower duty cycle square wave with higher peak voltage. It goes something like 0/0/+320/0/0/-320/0/0/+320 spending more time on the zero parts. I have used an UPS with this type of output to run a reel tape deck with no problem (its power transformer was buzzing though). An AC fan did not start on the other hand, I had to give it a spin with my hand for the fan to run.

True sine output is the best and most expensive. It should be pretty much the same as from the wall.


There are also three UPS topologies: offline, line-interactive and online.

Offline UPS is the cheapest. It has a battery charger, an inverter , the charger may have a separate (smaller) transformer. When there is power from the wall, a relay connects the output straight to the wall. During power outage the output is connected to the inverter.

Line-interactive UPS uses the same transformer to charge the battery and for the inverter, also, it uses the inductance of the transformer to start the inverter faster during the outage. This reduces the switching time. Line-interactive UPSs also usually have AVR, which uses additional windings on the transformer to step up or down the voltage in case it is a bit too high or low (thus, reducing the need to switch to battery in case of slight overvoltage or undervoltage).

Online UPSs run the inverter at all times, eliminating the switching time completely. They can also be used to smooth the incoming power (say, from a diesel generator).


One advise - choose a UPS that has a few big batteries than a lot of small batteries - small batteries are more expensive per Ah. Also, try to avoid UPSs where batteries are connected in parallel. If one cell of one battery develops a short, then the parallel batteries will try to charge it, producing lots of heat, causing the batteries to inflate and then they may be difficult to remove.

Also, the lifetime of a battery depends on the quality of the battery (CSB HRL, GPL, XTV series are great) and its temperature. Some UPSs do not have fans or have fans that only work when the UPS is running on batteries, resulting in high internal temperatures during normal operation.

I have a few APC UPSs (line interactive and offline), but they are all pretty old - the newest was made in 2004 IIRC.
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Last edited by Pentium100; 09-08-2017 at 08:53 PM.
  #6  
Old 09-08-2017, 09:45 PM
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Sawtooth Sawtooth is offline
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APC all the way...

I've had experience (and personally use) their UPS and surge bars. I'm not 100% if all their surge bar models use MOV's, but if you only use a bar make it one with an MOV. IMHO, naturally.
  #7  
Old 09-09-2017, 09:39 AM
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ACEACE ACEACE is offline
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I am believer when it comes to good quality surge protector. I have the monster htps7000 surge protector connected to monster avs2000 voltage regulator keep constant 120 volts. First impression instantly how much the sound floor drops with more of quieter and distinctive presence of sound by cd or cassette it does truly make a difference. Unfortunately due to space limitations I only have this setup at the main listening room. The bedroom has monster hts3600 surge protectors and the living room is connected to monster hdp2400 surge protector.
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  #8  
Old 09-12-2017, 07:32 PM
sonyandredbull sonyandredbull is offline
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Picked up an APC SMT750 today. It cost quite a bit more than the Cyberpower, but it had a metal casing and looked to be an overall higher quality unit. I read some reports of those cheaper plastic case UPS's catching fire, and if I'm going to have my UPS burst into flames, I prefer it be inside metal.
  #9  
Old 09-13-2017, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentium100 View Post
Also, try to avoid UPSs where batteries are connected in parallel. If one cell of one battery develops a short, then the parallel batteries will try to charge it, producing lots of heat, causing the batteries to inflate and then they may be difficult to remove.
Funnily enough, yesterday we had this exact failure mode in one of my office's UPSs, but with a pair of batteries connected in series

FWIW, most small home/office use UPSs that I've seen use the same very common 7Ah 12V battery size:



often in series or parallel pairs. There are reasonably cheap, at about 10-12 Eur per piece, but expect to replace them annually under typical usage, if you want reliability. One must really move up the UPS ladder to find something using bigger/different ones (really big ones use custom assembled packs which are not necessarily Lead-Acid, good luck replacing those).

One exception were the LIDL 12V portable "power packs" that use a lower profile version of the same battery, which is nearly impossible to find a replacement for. I had to modify one's bay in order to fit the most standard one.

Things like booster/air compressor packs for cars use different types of lead-acid battery (more like motorcycle batteries, rather than the deep cycle ones used in UPS).
  #10  
Old 09-14-2017, 05:38 AM
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Niels Niels is offline
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This is interesting.
I posted a question about power tools influence on the AC on another forum but didnt get an answer there.
I live in Spain and ac flutuates wildly, at the same time I have to get a new line into the house as the one going in now is too small in diameter.
Ok, long story "short", we were working on the house last year with lots of power tools and suddenly my AudioEngine A2 active speakers I had connected to my iPad for work music stopped working.
Also, my quite expensive Bryston B100 amplifier would go in protect mode sometimes, power cord needed to be removed and put back in for it to work again, finally it just stopped working all together. Have checked the internal "surge" fuse on the power start board and it was blown, have changed it to a new one today but didnt try connect it to power yet.
Yesterday, almost a year since the active speakers stopped working I tried again to look at them, didnt see any internal fuse in those but tried one last time to connect them to power and the surprise was huge as they worked, I cant believe it, what on earth happened here?
Now I am very afraid to use my stereo but I am wondering about installing a surge protector in the fuse cabinet where my power comes in, not sure it would help though.
I use an approved lightning surge protector in the outlet to the stereo, it never triggered, I also use a Furutech TP60e distributor, and finally I have just inserted a dc filter before the distributor. Dont have any problems with transformer hum though, its just a test...
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  #11  
Old 09-14-2017, 08:43 AM
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Ghitulescu Ghitulescu is offline
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The problem is that UPS for computers are rather noisy for audio use. Some pose even problems to the regular PSUs by employing non sinus curves ...
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  #12  
Old 09-14-2017, 11:15 AM
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I didnt have any luck, my amp keeps blowing the internal fuse, even with only 219 coming inn, guess Canada is next stop. Hope my wife doesnt find out...
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  #13  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:59 PM
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Pentium100 Pentium100 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velktron View Post
Funnily enough, yesterday we had this exact failure mode in one of my office's UPSs, but with a pair of batteries connected in series
I guess the UPS was too eager to charge the battery. However, the current in your case was limited by the charger current of your UPS. When batteries are connected in parallel, the healthy battery usually can provide more current to it in addition to the current from the charger.
Quote:
FWIW, most small home/office use UPSs that I've seen use the same very common 7Ah 12V battery size:
<snip>
often in series or parallel pairs. There are reasonably cheap, at about 10-12 Eur per piece, but expect to replace them annually under typical usage, if you want reliability.
Or, you can buy a quality 12V 7Ah (or even 9Ah) battery of the same physical size that costs~30EUR, but lasts years.

Examples from CSB products (I have no affiliation with them, I just am a happy user of CSB batteries):
XTV1272 - designed for higher temperatures - should last 12 years at 25C, 7 at 40C and 4 at 50C. Good for UPSs that have poor ventilation. 32EUR
HRL1234W - designed for high discharge rate and long life. 9Ah capacity in the same size, has more capacity under high discharge rate than other batteries (for example, XTV can provide 158W for 15 minutes, HRL can provide 205W for 15 minutes or 643W for 2 minutes). 10 years at 25C, 6 at 40C and 3 at 50C. 27EUR

I usually buy HRL series, or, if the UPS is always hot - XTV series. I actually have a set of EVX12200 (for electric vehicles, designed to be completely discharged, the store did not have HRL at the time) in my UPS that are almost 7 years old and still have about 90% of original capacity (I recently ran a test). The batteries are bigger, 12V 20Ah. 6 year old pair of batteries (I do not remember XTV or HRL, more likely XTV) also seem OK in another UPS.

Yes, the price is 2-3 times as much as that of the cheap ones, but these last longer than 2-3 times as long.
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  #14  
Old 09-14-2017, 02:56 PM
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TooCool4 TooCool4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
The problem is that UPS for computers are rather noisy for audio use. Some pose even problems to the regular PSUs by employing non sinus curves ...
Just replaced the 2 fans in my Liebert GXT4 with 2 Noctua NFR8 @ 9.1db and itís now whisper quiet, I have to be near the UPS and have the music off to hear it
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