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  #1  
Old 01-12-2018, 02:25 AM
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TheDHndrsn TheDHndrsn is offline
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Appreciate A $5K Cartridge?

I cannot imagine arriving at a station in life (not at my age) that I could afford to spend five or ten grand on a phono cartridge. I was reminded of this today while surfing one of the LP sites I frequent. They were advertising van den Hul carts and offered a Crimson XGW Stradivarius for a mere $5,400.

My initial reaction was, "why would you spend that much money." Then I stopped myself and began wondering about it.

In my mind, such outlay would warrant comparable cabling, amp, preamp, speakers, etc to where a $100K system was within reason. Therein lies the issue. Undoubtedly the gain is at best marginal. For such expense, however, what does such marginal benefit look/feel/sound like.

I understand this is a difficult thing to quantitate and suspect the answer is knowing it when one hears it. I have never had opportunity to listen critically to such equipment. Then again, asking the question may make for the wrong person to appreciate the difference.

So what is the answer?

Would the average LP fan notice the difference, how much of a difference, and below what threshold is it pointless to consider such a cartridge?

Conversely, is it a misconception to believe such as a cart is wasted on the average system, for example a better than average table hooked into a higher than average receiver but still common name brand equipment e,g. Pioneer, Technics, Sansui, etc.

Thoughts?
Dave
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  #2  
Old 01-12-2018, 02:36 AM
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I dont like van den Hul ones. Only his early models from Elac and Goldring are well made. The direction of his business can be seen in his "cable shop". If cable has a sound, you need another equipment, not another cable. Just a moneymaker, not more.

The only phono cartridge which was worth more then 1000€ are strain gauge carts from Soundsmith:



https://www.sound-smith.com/cartridg...-gauge-systems


Nothing really new, Mikro and Technics used it in the early 70ies too. But it is actual the only one.
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Last edited by lucky; 01-12-2018 at 03:59 AM.
  #3  
Old 01-12-2018, 06:25 AM
skdsoccer skdsoccer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDHndrsn View Post
I cannot imagine arriving at a station in life (not at my age) that I could afford to spend five or ten grand on a phono cartridge. I was reminded of this today while surfing one of the LP sites I frequent. They were advertising van den Hul carts and offered a Crimson XGW Stradivarius for a mere $5,400.

My initial reaction was, "why would you spend that much money." Then I stopped myself and began wondering about it.

In my mind, such outlay would warrant comparable cabling, amp, preamp, speakers, etc to where a $100K system was within reason. Therein lies the issue. Undoubtedly the gain is at best marginal. For such expense, however, what does such marginal benefit look/feel/sound like.

I understand this is a difficult thing to quantitate and suspect the answer is knowing it when one hears it. I have never had opportunity to listen critically to such equipment. Then again, asking the question may make for the wrong person to appreciate the difference.

So what is the answer?

Would the average LP fan notice the difference, how much of a difference, and below what threshold is it pointless to consider such a cartridge?

Conversely, is it a misconception to believe such as a cart is wasted on the average system, for example a better than average table hooked into a higher than average receiver but still common name brand equipment e,g. Pioneer, Technics, Sansui, etc.

Thoughts?
Dave
I looked in an audio magazine a week ago just out of curiosity. There was a TT for $45k and a cartridge for $12k. Not sure if they were the highest price because I was just flipping thru it. Anyway to your question. There is only so much engineering that can go into a cartridge. No one has reinvented physics or materials so I'm not sure how they are justified. Wonder how much it actually cost to make????? Yes definitely a point of diminishing returns. It may sound different but whether it's better is only someone's opinion. You got it right on the synergies of the system. There are so many variables in reproducing sound (including the room acoustics) that if you believe nirvana exist you are just kidding yourself IMO. A blind test with anything decent made in the last 40 years with the current megabuck state of the art and I would love to see the results. BTW I have around 10k records and use a REGA Planar 2 with grace tonearm and signet cartridge bought used for $200 all together and have no desire to replace it for something "better". Also I LOVE the names of these pieces of audio art...... My cartridge is just a TK-7E. Guess marketing is a huge play when spending $$$$

Last edited by skdsoccer; 01-12-2018 at 06:29 AM.
  #4  
Old 01-12-2018, 07:18 AM
john from seattle john from seattle is offline
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To get good sound, one does need to pay to get it, but as technology has advanced, now a lot of gear that does not cost even a grand now sound fantastic, but only up to a point, unlike in the past where a speaker in an equivalent price point meant so, so performance.

That said, I still think for many components, around $5K is the point of diminishing returns, give or take.

That is, you have to double the spending to gain an every smaller amount of improvements. To do this with carts means stepping all the way up to a low output MC cart, and those can get wicked expensive, unlike their HOMC/MM counterparts, though they can also get stupid expensive, just not as expensive.

Many say, the best sound is from a LOMC cart, while that is likely true, some may be too polite for some genres.

I'm not against spending good money when it's financially prudent to do so but only up to a point so I may never step up into the world of the LOMC, and besides, if I ever were to do so, I'd go with a top flight MM cart with interchangeable styli and have one with a tip for older mono's, one for newer mono's, perhaps a conical for old, worn recordings, and at least one type of elliptical.

However, I fully agree that the table, the phono stage etc all have to be up to snuff or you can't gain the benefits.

it all comes down to how well the cart tracks, deals with IGD, how it renders the inner detail in the extreme treble (not necessarily how trebly it is) and how well it can render the subtle nuances in the bass region, and do it without smearing in the mid bass/lower midrange region etc.

That is where one can cut the wheat from the chaff when it comes to good sounding/performing carts.

This is what Ian of HiFi Vinyl News tries to do with his cartridge shootout videos and has found that there are some very good carts that not only perform extremely well, but sound fantastic for the price, Grado Prestige green and black, both at just below $100, the Nagaoka MP110 especially, and the Goldring 1006 at about $250, plus I think he ranks quite high the Nagaoka MP150 as well, which is at a similar price.

That all said, if you go at it wisely, you can get probably 95+ percent of what a top flight crazy expensive system will give you for around a grand up to 5K or so, each. Now, there will be the occasional brand/model that perform just as well for a bit less ($800-$1000) but at that price range, much of your improvements per component will be the greatest for what you spend to get such improvements and after that, the improvements become less and less obvious, and more about the intimate details, smoothness etc it sounds.
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  #5  
Old 01-12-2018, 07:22 AM
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TooCool4 TooCool4 is online now
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You don't need to spend 100K on a system if you are spending 5K on a cartridge.

My cartridge which you see in my avatar is £3000 and i have not spend £100K on my system. My system is between £42K - £45K.
I want to get a better cartridge when i upgrade my cartridge next, but i don't need to spend a lot more to get something that will be better than my current Roksan Shiraz.

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  #6  
Old 01-12-2018, 08:06 AM
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For 20.000€ you can get the Laser turntable from ELP :

http://elpj.com/

no hassle with a needle or clicks and pops. Your blue note LP's live forever....
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  #7  
Old 01-12-2018, 08:19 AM
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Elite-ist Elite-ist is online now
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If you ever have the opportunity to demo high-priced systems, you will, hopefully, be dissuaded from spending an enormous amount of money for something that is not much better than what you already have.

I have demoed all sorts of systems over the years. One particular demo took place at a place called HiFi Attic in Vernon, about 5.5 hours drive from where I live. We were visiting long-time friends there. The total system cost - with a rough calculation in my head - was over $11K. It consisted of a preamp, amp, CDP, and pair of speakers.

My friend has heard my system and he offered his verdict close to 5 minutes into the demo. I chose the CD to be played as I already had it at home. Yes, my system was better-sounding.

Nando.
  #8  
Old 01-12-2018, 08:21 AM
mtsaclander mtsaclander is offline
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That all said, if you go at it wisely, you can get probably 95+ percent of what a top flight crazy expensive system will give you for around a grand up to 5K or so, each. Now, there will be the occasional brand/model that perform just as well for a bit less ($800-$1000) but at that price range, much of your improvements per component will be the greatest for what you spend to get such improvements and after that, the improvements become less and less obvious, and more about the intimate details, smoothness etc it sounds.

As Above

In the past few years I have been getting into turntables and cartridges and have been told by many experienced shop owners and as others have mentioned that a good cartridge like a Sumiko Blue Point No.2, Denon DL-301 or AT440MLB would give 90% or better sound accuracy of cartridges costing ten times their price. It comes down to your personal taste, hearing abilities with age, turntable, amps and most importantly speakers. I have heard sub $1000 packages sound better than $5000+systems at Brooks in socal when he was alive. End of the day do what floats your boat.
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  #9  
Old 01-12-2018, 08:27 AM
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Sandflyer Sandflyer is offline
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Quote:
Your blue note LP's live forever....
Unless you drop it by accident......

The market is there for all kinds of people with all kinds of money to spend. Why drive a Bentley if a Chevy Spark will get you there? But if I have money, why shouldn't I buy something nicer?

My good ol' dad recently upgraded his Martin Logans (sorry, don't remember which). He's getting on in years, so somehow I don't believe he will hear a substantial difference, but heck, who am I to stop him? :-)

If I won the lottery tomorrow, I do believe I would build a house around a listening room and I would put some fancy kit in there, just because I could.
  #10  
Old 01-12-2018, 08:40 AM
skdsoccer skdsoccer is offline
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Start with the listening room and work back from there!!! Proper dimensions and room treatments for whatever speakers you choose.
  #11  
Old 01-12-2018, 08:51 AM
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Yes, that's exactly what I meant :-)
  #12  
Old 01-12-2018, 10:43 AM
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Ghitulescu Ghitulescu is online now
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I can only say that in the heyday of the LP, just before the CD, when all the advanced technologies appeared that today are audiophiles' state of the art (like DMM, HSM etc.), few TTs and accessories/parts were that expensive, even taking into account the inflation (purchase power) and the quasi-monopole situation.

The vinyl revival is based on the exquisite status they conferred to it, just that this would inherently restrict the market penetration.... innocent people that see on TV/theatres exquisite lawyers playing an LP while enjoying a fine drink but affording only one Crosley-like TT, would soon abandon it...

Having money does not justify being skinned alive...
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  #13  
Old 01-12-2018, 12:01 PM
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pioneercollector pioneercollector is offline
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I was really considering a new cart to go with my 'new' TOTL (to me) Pioneer PL-7L TT....this is my forever TT by the way.... and i was experimenting with several options, any way i happened across a secondhand Ortofon VMS 30 MK2 .. It was on one of the other TT's i had.... My PL-7L did not have a cart, and i wanted to test it out straight away....the ortofon was the correct size to set up... i did set it up (Not knowing whether or not it even worked!)... it worked! I tuned it in to the load mass and the other settings on my pre amp....wow! sounds great!

My mate popped in with some new new vinyl, and noticed the 'new' deck...and spotted the ortofon cert.... 'lovely deck' as stated, and 'wow' an 'ortofon VMS 30' those were great in the day...hard to find now.

He has 1000's of records...

So i really sat down and listened to the sound produced on the lowly secondhand cart that i removed from a cheaper secondhand TT.... i love it!

So much so, i managed to find a back up cart (NOS) for 100 GBP.... i love the sound of this cart, with my set up, my speakers and my listening space...

I would rather have $5000 worth of vinyl...or bike...or whatever..... never going to spend that on a cart!

PC
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  #14  
Old 01-12-2018, 12:28 PM
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Mark J Mark J is offline
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There are lots of people around the world that have money to burn. Some of them post on audioaficionado and have pics of their gear. Not many here spend that kind of money on audio.

I've been lucky with our group of listeners. I bought a TT from consignment sale back in 86 that had a Dynavector 23R, had an Ortofon MC-20 from years earlier bought cheap from Ortofon and added a Koetsu Black that just happened to be on a turntable I bought on CL for cheap. These cartridges have given me enjoyment of the low priced, expensive cartridges and have given friends an idea of what a good cartridge can do.

In our group one has ZYX Yatra on an Audiomods arm, here for a while as he is not currently listening and he dropped it off to align. Sounds great.

Tom Clone, who copied my main rig, added an MC-20 after a Benz Micro Ace which he didn't like. He has since bought an MC-30 Super and loaned it to me for a few days. I was up late listening to that one.

TJ-using newer gear, but a Pioneer PL-41 stepped up to an AT-33 and then to a Dynavector 20X2 because of sound quality.

MMcQ has moved the most in his entire system except speakers. His cartridge was a slew of MM including an odd Grace F9, retipped and moved on to an SAE 1000 then an AT33 I think.

None of these are the high buck cartridges but then there is Steve. He build a 120-pound Portable turntable. It breaks down and gets packed in Pelican cases. His SME 309 got a slightly used ZYX Omega cartridge. While he lived here he did not have his rig set up, still building speakers, so loaning out the tt or cartridge was fine with him. Sure it costs a few dollars in wear for each record play but he figures he has made the big investment in a great cartridge and now can get it rebuilt for a few hundred. More than most will spend on a new cartridge but the sound quality is there now and should be even after a SoundSmith rebuild.

I haven't spent nor would I spend a grand on a cartridge but I have been lucky enough to have a number of great cartridges flow through here.

Shown are the Omega on a Magnepan arm, the boxes for the portable turntable, the portable turntable in an early iteration and the Koetsu on the turntable I bought it on. Just really lucky on that one.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ZYX on 160.jpg (41.7 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg Boxes.jpg (44.5 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg TT-Top.jpg (68.1 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg 600-FR.jpg (52.4 KB, 20 views)
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Last edited by Mark J; 01-12-2018 at 12:35 PM.
  #15  
Old 01-12-2018, 02:09 PM
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TooCool4 TooCool4 is online now
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Well I guess it's horses for courses, i only buy what i can afford and definitely donít buy more than i can hear.

My system is modest, itís all about getting the best sound reproduction for the money I have. I only have what I need and that I am going to use. I am not starting a museum nor am I starting a collection hence I only have one system and in that one system I have a turntable a tape deck and a tuner. I have the money to get really good gear because I would rather have one good thing than 10 mediocre things.
I am not saying itís a bad thing if you want lots of different things, itís just not for me I want quality all the way.
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  #16  
Old 01-12-2018, 08:51 PM
Bob Boyer Bob Boyer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCool4 View Post
Well I guess it's horses for courses, i only buy what i can afford and definitely donít buy more than i can hear.

My system is modest, itís all about getting the best sound reproduction for the money I have. I only have what I need and that I am going to use. I am not starting a museum nor am I starting a collection hence I only have one system and in that one system I have a turntable a tape deck and a tuner. I have the money to get really good gear because I would rather have one good thing than 10 mediocre things.
I am not saying itís a bad thing if you want lots of different things, itís just not for me I want quality all the way.
That's pretty much my philosophy as well, TC. I'm down to the one system in the small house with one tape deck, one turntable, one computer recording/playback system and speakers and amp. I think my system is more modest than yours but it's not by any means shabby and at the same time, I've gotten really good value for the money I have spent. And other than the Revox B77, it's not based on vintage components so when I buy, I'm out in the marketplace looking for new stuff for the most part.

That said, I can say that yes, those stratospheric priced components can, but not always, make a difference. And when they do, you'll be gobsmacked. I may have told this story here before but years ago I wandered into Nicholson's Audio in Nashville, which carried some very high end - and high priced - gear. I remember putting the first Johnny Cash American Recordings album in the CD player of an all top-line Ayre system - CD player/Preamp/Amp which was powering a pair of the best Magneplanar speakers at that time. They probably cost $15,000 and sounded beautiful. The combined electronics cost north of $50,000. I remember thinking "I could live with this system for a very long time" while listening to Mr. Cash's new album for the first time.

Then Lee Lyons took the speaker cables and ran them to other end of the room to a set of Nearfield Acoustics PipeDreams Loudspeakers, complete with four Depth Charge Subwoofers. At $100,000, plus the cost of the subwoofers, this was the most expensive speaker system ever produced in the 1990s. The speakers themselves were two 7 foot tall line array towers with I have no idea how many drivers in each tower. I had read about these things and their magical abilities to create highly accurate soundstages and render instruments perfectly but I was nowhere near prepared for what I experienced. And what I experienced was Johnny effin' Cash sitting on one of those big subs, playing his guitar and singing to us.

He. Was. In. The. Room.

That was a game changer for me. I walked out of Nicholson's wondering how much Vanderbilt Hospital would pay for a kidney. And since that day, I've never criticized anyone who chases sound reproduction at that level. Sure, not everything is that great, but every now and then, it really is and if you have the dollars to pay for it and you like music that much, then buy it and install it. You've got my blessing, even though you certainly don't need it.
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  #17  
Old 01-13-2018, 06:07 AM
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df_genius df_genius is offline
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PioneerCollector - Keep hold of the VMS30, still one of the best MM's you can get, the Ortofon 2M black is the successor to it

You can hear differences between high-end MC carts but the quality of the phono stage is just as important, and loading any cartridge properly is just as critical too. For MC I use the self-build Paradise phono stage, supposedly on a par with a $10k retail phono stage. I fitted a 6-way switch on the back for easily adjusting load to suit the cartridge.

My mid to high-end MC cartridges are Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua, Denon DL-S1 and DL-304 and a Linn Karma.
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Last edited by df_genius; 01-13-2018 at 06:12 AM.
  #18  
Old 01-13-2018, 12:44 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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By the age of 40 to 45 a person would loose a great amount of the hearing spectrum, If I would spend that much money I would get a set of 15 years old ears. But I know it's a fantasy, It is as fantasy as thinking an insanely priced cable or cartridge will make a flawed record sounds better, a golden toilet will give you a better experience than the ceramic one, or diamond on the watch will saves you time. Just my 2 pennies.
  #19  
Old 01-13-2018, 01:05 PM
skdsoccer skdsoccer is offline
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By reading many of the replies it seems people equate quality and performance directly with cost. So many references state a specific dollar amount threshold that must be spent to achieve some greater level of performance. While something may cost ten times as much does not mean it automatically is as good or better. Also I love the names of these pieces of equipment. Just not a AT 155LC but some esoteric sounding nonsense (Crimson XG Stratavarious)??? By all means if you have the means spend $$. No doubt you are making someone very happy and flush with $$.

Last edited by skdsoccer; 01-13-2018 at 01:08 PM.
  #20  
Old 01-13-2018, 02:40 PM
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Sandflyer Sandflyer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
By the age of 40 to 45 a person would loose a great amount of the hearing spectrum...
It's not only about the spectrum, it's also about a natural, full sound, details, realistic soundstage.
Just because my hearing's going away doesn't mean I stop going to the philharmonic (at which, I presume, I get the full spectrum etc. )
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