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iamhifi
08-19-2008, 07:57 PM
Hello to all,
Audio cables, power cables and power source makes an impact on music to the better. I found out that the best upgrade to my system was Shunyata Hydra 8 power conditioner and Python power cables. One for the amp, another for Cd player and one for the wall. I have Decks, Preamp, and radio connected to the Hydra. The Hydra makes my system sound very detail, great stage, and nice an warm. Of course a combination of audio RCA cables, speaker cables help to a great degree, but not as much as the Hydra.
Angel
Accuphase, Altec, Harbeth, HHB, Maranz, Mcintosh, Nakamichi, SAE, Shunyata, Teac, Technics.

TheReeler
08-19-2008, 10:54 PM
After lots and lots and lots of blind tests in the bests systems one can find out there, it's imppossible to difference a top dollar cable from the standard one that came with the equipment originally.

niklasthedolphin
08-20-2008, 05:29 AM
Cables have influence on the sound.

But not much.

To relate it into something understandable here's how much:

Generaly speaking................

Tranducers in the set-up is most important.
Transducers being microphones, pick-up cartridges, loudspeakers, tape heads.

Analogue sources get's in with 1:5 influence

Relative to transducers, amplifying units has 1:10 influence.

Relative to transducers, digital units has 1:50 influence.

Again relative to transducers, interconnects and loudspeaker cables has 1:100 influence.

Power cables and power conditioners has 1:500 influence.
Power cables and conditioners has more influnce on units in which the power circuits are badly constructed.

Working tweaks will be placed anywhere in between, depending on the nature of the tweak.
Most tweaks, like cable supports, CD ploughs, green ink on CD's, rice bags on loudspeakers, demagnetizing loudspeaker cables etc., has no influence whatsoever.

Untrained ears, dismatched gear, lack of high quality LP's or reel tape recordings makes it difficult for 99% of all declared music lovers and hifi freaks to determine influence of any of the above mentioned.

No cables does music any good.

They all has destructive influence on the music and quality of sound.
Depending on the nature and construction principle of the cable; like plaited, braided, flatcables, single core, twisted, multicore, copper, silver; the cable has each their character of destruction.
E.g.: Twisted cables are not good for treble transmission, flat cables are ruining the bass, single core is better at transmitting stage and perspective than multicore and in that way all cables are doing their's to make things worse.

BUT.........................
if you connect two different cables parallel, then each cable will, to a certain extend, counterbalance the other cables disadvantages.

In that way you can take 2 or 3 cheap cables made on different construction principles, connect them parallel and you will have a cable that kicks ass on cables for the price of real estate.

The solution is called multicabling.
It's working on loudspeakers and interconnects.

Teminating loudspeaker cables is worthless and just another way to degrade the sound.

Power cables..............well..............if your gear is badly constructed then you better buy a lot of power conditioners and power cables.
*Hi5*
However, If you have hum, 50/60 Hz noise, if you hear your fridge turning on in the middle of the music or other power supply issues, you gotta clean up the cable mess, ground stuff, shield cables etc. This can be partly done by changing power cords.

"dolph"

iamhifi
08-20-2008, 10:59 AM
Wow !
Well I have explain a bit better why the cables and power conditioner make a difference in my equipment. By all means and no derespect to others I don't have a cheap equipment, but not the most expensive, What I have is good to my wallet and ears.
I know that with my Hrbeth 7-ES2 speakers if I use a cheap cable it will sound decent, however I when switching to Kimber 8TC the music sound it full body and more detail, wider stage. Again a friend of my lend me a Audience AU24 and wow the sound kept the stage, deeper, the music had weigh and I heard nuances that was never there before. The separation of the music was very good, and most important to me was the warm sound I heard through the mids.
That said my Mcintosh MC352 is what pushes the speakers and I have compare with Krell, Pass, and other bad boys and the MAC sound clear, rela, warm but has less power, I could care less because the harbeth are 120-150 Watts. I used to used the power cord that came with amp and sound it real good, guess what when I switch to the Phython it sound it even better, more control in the base, very detail. All of this was connected to a Panamax, but when I tested the Hydra 8 I said hell with the panamax.
I don't used any music enhancer, I just used decent cables that do make a difference in sound and to better it.
I have done blind test to others that could not believe That cables and power conditioner makes a difference and their Jaws drop.

Note I use a Mcintosh C40 preamp and a Accuphase DP-500 CD player that both of this units work great together.

Here is a tesy I did with my Marantz 2270, I used regura Monster Cable for the speakers and a Technics 1200 MKII with a Ortofon Super 20 . and I was impress with the sound, however I swith to cables to the AU24 and there was a 20 percent improvement to the sound.
Again when someone tells me that cables don't make a difference I said buy the right stuff and you will hear it, I would say well I can prove it to you but is a long way to Miami.
Other people go crazy with the Valhala from Nordost but to me there is a only a 3 percent difference in sound that I can live without. I have tried many cables, Transparen, Kimber, Cardas, Monster, Nordost, Audience and they all do better than a stock cable, the question is which cable is better suit to your needs.

Angel

TheReeler
08-20-2008, 11:24 AM
You ear can't hear any difference between a good cable of 10 euros/metre than any other cable of 1000 euros/metre.

We have tested lots of different cables with differente equipment, by ear and even with AudioPrecision. McIntosh?... even tested with a pair of McIntosh MC-1201, Krell KAV-700, Mark Levinson 333... etc etc etc.

Speakers?: from common use to JMLab Utopia and lots of speakers in the middle of them.

Anyway, each one can believe what he wants, of course.

We have all articles published in spanish, but some in English, like this one:

http://www.matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

TheReeler
08-20-2008, 11:28 AM
About the McIntosh setup... here is:

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/4025/cimg1037zl8.jpg

MacGyver
08-20-2008, 12:06 PM
i have upgraded the power cord on my DENON DCD-1500 CDP with a grounded IEC. i am not entirely sure that it has made any difference in the sound, but at least now a CDP that looks like it means business has a power cable to match...



http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/DSCF0453.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/DCD1500LadyAyekaCustomVer6.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/DSCF0464.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/DSCF0465.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/DCD-1500CABLEFINAL2.jpg

iamhifi
08-20-2008, 06:19 PM
hello thereeler,
Impresive Mac gear and JM speakers. I got to tell you that if you can't hear any difference between cables then I relly don't know what to tell specially with the posted gear. Cables do change the sound in that you hear what your equipment is capable of delivering, makes interconnect disappear.
Angel

TheReeler
08-21-2008, 12:54 AM
Angel, isn't just me, we have tested under all circunstances and with all class of people, from composers to audiophiles.

Check this pic to see one of the machines tested:

http://www.matrixhifi.com/imagenes/mg3_equipos1.jpg

The cable important... yes, BUT the best you can buy, costs less than any cheap record. I've bought professional good cable for $30 a roll of 25 metres and about $5 four connectors of the best quality you can find in the market.

There's also a good article about the audio lies:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf
http://pkant.htmlplanet.com/wiresfaq.htm
http://signal.ece.utexas.edu/seminars/dsp_seminars/01fall/AudioMyths.pdf
...
...
...

niklasthedolphin
08-21-2008, 05:22 AM
Angel, isn't just me, we have tested under all circunstances and with all class of people, from composers to audiophiles.


The cable important... yes, BUT the best you can buy, costs less than any cheap record. I've bought professional good cable for $30 a roll of 25 metres and about $5 four connectors of the best quality you can find in the market.

There's also a good article about the audio lies:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf
http://pkant.htmlplanet.com/wiresfaq.htm
http://signal.ece.utexas.edu/seminars/dsp_seminars/01fall/AudioMyths.pdf
...
...
...

I read the three links.
:-oo

What a bunch of crap........most of it.
*shoot*

Those people stating those things are ignorants and have never heard real good sound quality.
*punk*

They should be tied up and forced to listen to some gear of my choise.
*whipslap*

Internet story tales like that makes so many people make the wrong choises.
*bang*

My advise is: Trust your ears and until they give you the message, don't shop hifi.
:)

Just my 2pence
o-o:-)

"dolph"

TheReeler
08-21-2008, 06:58 AM
What a bunch of crap........most of it.
*shoot*

Why?.


Those people stating those things are ignorants and have never heard real good sound quality.
*punk*

One of those is one of the presidents of the AES (Audio Eng. Society).
Other are eng. in electronics, especialized in audio analyzing.

Have you ever heard what is the AudioPrecision and other extreme precision tools?.


They should be tied up and forced to listen to some gear of my choise.
*whipslap*

I've heared it hundreds of times, and when I visit you (an example) and do on your own system a blind test using other cables and devices, then the results appear: zero differences by hear in your system said by the owner, and in some cases, we are talking about system over $50,000... and of course, more.

My advise is: Trust your ears and until they give you the message, don't shop hifi.

Domestic audio market have invented all that crap, not the professionals.

Anyway, I'll no argue this subject here. There're lots of forums out there where to discuss about all of this.

Have a nice day.

niklasthedolphin
08-21-2008, 07:53 AM
Generaly speaking, I don't disagrre essentialy about the cable conclusion.

It is very small differences out there, not at all justifying the price tags of cables, giving some people heart attacks.

But there are other stuff I really look upon as ignorant crap.
I Quote:
"Digital Disinformation: In which it is claimed that digital systems are inherently inferior to analog systems....."

Does he hereby claim the opposite is the truth?
Make my day............

I Quote:
"Real Truth (RT): Digital has better flatness, distortion, noise, robustness....."

"192 kHz is just a waste of bandwidth"

"Myth 5: 16 bit is not enough"

"16 bits gives 98 dB dynamic range; typical
home system can achieve 60 dB; CD noise floor
can be as low as 19 bits perceptually; 20 bits is
great for studio mastering but not needed in a
delivery medium"

I have experiences that contrasts these claims.
My own RT: "Empiri is better than populistic behaviour on the net."

I quote more here:
"NFB is indispensable, unavoidable; lowers
distortion, lowers output Z, increases input Z"
I've heard amps without NFB that sounds just great. In particular Tube amps.

Quote:
"Myth 7: Fewer stages are good"
And his RT is: "Typical recording will have passed through
100 op-amps and hundreds of metres of ordinary
cable; distortion degrades sound, not gain stages"

I say:
"Yeah..............but those realy good sounding recordings are those with shortest way through and mostly purely analog ones, that is. How will he explain that?"

Quote:
"Myth 9: Integrated circuits are bad"
His RT: "Talented IC designers and full control over
device properties produce incredible results (e.g.
AD797, distortion <–120 dB at 6 Vrms, voltage
noise < 1 nV/÷Hz)"

I say:
"Good sound is not defined in good data"

(Jesus, he's realy stupid this guy)

Quote:
"Myth 10: Switches degrade the sound
RT: No effect from switches; some tone controls
have too much range, needing make-up gain
with possible added noise"

I know, I've experienced, it's common sense: Switches can create noise and drop outs, bad connections etc.

quote:
"Cable Craziness
In which it is claimed that cables have distortions
that are immeasurable…"

So this guy is one of those that thinks he can meassure everything.

I think he should go meassure the factor of his understanding of experiencing good sound and then he should meassure his love live.

Quote: "Conclusions
Buy CD players, amplifiers, and other
electronics based on their feature set
Use 12-gauge to hook up your speakers
Use good co-ax for interconnect
Avoid tweak items such as rubber feet, cones,
black boxes, esoteric cables, power cords, and
line filters"

I'm *omg*

From one of the other links:

Quote:
"Today’s best digital recordings are the
best recordings ever made. To be fair, it
must be admitted that a state-of the-art
analog recording and a state-of-the-art
digital recording, at this stage of their
respective technologies, will probably
be of comparable quality. Even so, the
number of Tree-Worshiping Analog
Druids is rapidly dwindling in the professional
recording world. The digital
way is simply the better way."

I know different.................for sure................tested the best digital up against analog.
32/192 vs. R2R.
Digital go home.....................when it comes to quality.

Well.................................

That's what i think about it: *no**el_loco**shoot**yikes**WTF*

"dolph"

TheReeler
08-21-2008, 08:43 AM
As I said before, I'll no make any discussion, but I'd like to make just a point:

"Myth 10: Switches degrade the sound
RT: No effect from switches; some tone controls have too much range, needing make-up gain with possible added noise"

If the switches are good, there's no degrade. Think about how many switches, lights, meters and more have the professional recording studios where top recordings are done, like the british Abbey Road.

Another thing is that a really bad switch makes the sound worse. This is true, of course, the same that if you have the best electronics in the world and use bad speakers.

But a good switch is cheap and isn't the same than all cheaps switches are good.

About digital vs analog... here I'll no make any discussion. I've listen the best machines of both worlds and have my impression. And have done lots of blind tests to owners with hiend analog systems, like SME 10 and 20 turntables, colibri cartridge... etc etc etc ( http://www.matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_art_cd_vinilo.htm ).

My last line in this topic: if you haven't done blind tests that supports your words, then you haven't got all the truth *reelspin*

niklasthedolphin
08-21-2008, 01:05 PM
I've blind tested, double blind tested, worked within studios, made master recordings at live and studio events.
Digital as well as analog.

I don't feel I have to argue about it.
Just making my point of view.

No such thing as objectivity exists in sound experiences.

Or maybe not existing at all.................

My question to you is:
Do you believe in blind testing?
Do you believe that blind testing sound experiences can replace the missing objectivity?

Are you aware what happens in the brain when sound comes to ear and signals are passed on to adaptation further on in the brain.
Do you believe every little signal and every little reaction in your subconsciousness during that process is definable and meassureable?

Almost all the before mentioned equipment in this thread has been passing my ears before.
Some of it I remember as good, some very good but a lot of it is also mediocre to "forget it" gear.

Where is "the best" gear and what happened to the very most important art and craft of matching to get the synergy singing?

Well, I doubt we ever will get to agreement on this.

Stay happy
*btoast*

"dolph"

TheReeler
08-21-2008, 02:48 PM
As I said before, I won't argue with you about this subject, but will reply your questions:


Do you believe in blind testing?

Of course.


Do you believe that blind testing sound experiences can replace the missing objectivity?

I think that without blind ABX testing, it's impossible to get objectivity.
When you were studing, did the teachers answer you "do you know all about this mathematics? Yes? Well, then you've passed with a perfect evaluation".

It's impossible to be objective when you are watching something that you must hear, not watch. The only difference between the common mode and the blind test mode, is that you don't know which equipment is sounding. You have your both ears in both cases... so... use them!!!



Are you aware what happens in the brain when sound comes to ear and signals are passed on to adaptation further on in the brain.
Do you believe every little signal and every little reaction in your subconsciousness during that process is definable and meassureable?

I've readed about it but I'm not a psychologist, but have friends that are and have studied about it, even made doctoral theses, but I'm sure that nothing like that will change the opinion of those who don't want to know the truth.


Where is "the best" gear and what happened to the very most important art and craft of matching to get the synergy singing?

Don't know, but each time anyone has said "hey!, I can listen differences between cables and/or digital sources", I've been in a lot of that tests in their homes and the anwser was always the same. They never passed a blind test, n-e-v-e-r. Do you think that always were listening to bad set ups or ba configured set ups?... too many tests to think it, at leats for me, and more when professionals of the audio field and even physicists told me same because they are too in this thing called "blind audio tests"

As I said before, too much tests and some years making these kind of things. Nowadays I don't need to do tests anymore.

iamhifi
08-21-2008, 03:38 PM
Hot topic,
All I know is that I had 5 friends of mine listen to different cables and the equipment sound it a bit different all the time, I tried different cables and I end up with the one I liked. I am not saying that the most expensive cable is the best all I am saying is that different cables make my equipment sound diferent, some to my liking and some not. What has made the bigest impact in sound is the Shunyata Hydra 8.
You don't need to be blind to listen to this changes.
Angel

TheReeler
08-21-2008, 03:52 PM
You don't need to be blind to listen to this changes.

Why? You listed with you ears, not with your eyes... or do you?

If you ever do a blind test with 10 rounds, you will be very impressed. It's free, zero cost.

Acoustic
08-21-2008, 04:05 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3192/2695109971_720e3db557_o.jpg

TheReeler
08-21-2008, 04:43 PM
Sorry, I did an error with copy/paste. I wanted to paste this link, not the audio critic:

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm

As Master Control Program in TRON movie said... "END OF LINE" :)

niklasthedolphin
08-21-2008, 05:50 PM
The Answer is 42

http://pileofphotos.com/pics/pic_1177083612.jpg

"dolph"

iamhifi
08-21-2008, 07:46 PM
thereeler,
The only problem is that i listen to music with my eyes open, but I don't get to see the cables behind the gear. AnywayI stared the topic because there are lots of audiophile people that still using low end Monster and other cables by bulk and don't know the advantage of using decent cables. Anyway you already had your mind set on disqualifying the advantage of cables.
Remember something that good Cables is no Cables at all, that is not hear the influence of the cable, but rather your system, but unfurtunally that comes at a price. And I tell you again keep the cables you have, borrow a Shunyata HYdra power conditioner and use it together with at least Shunyata Phython Cables and I will garantee you will be blown away. Sad you are not near by I will make a boliever at of you. Again no disrespect maybe you can't hear the difference and I can.

Angel

Mr. Lin
09-17-2008, 06:10 PM
thereeler,
The only problem is that i listen to music with my eyes open, but I don't get to see the cables behind the gear. AnywayI stared the topic because there are lots of audiophile people that still using low end Monster and other cables by bulk and don't know the advantage of using decent cables. Anyway you already had your mind set on disqualifying the advantage of cables.
Remember something that good Cables is no Cables at all, that is not hear the influence of the cable, but rather your system, but unfurtunally that comes at a price. And I tell you again keep the cables you have, borrow a Shunyata HYdra power conditioner and use it together with at least Shunyata Phython Cables and I will garantee you will be blown away. Sad you are not near by I will make a boliever at of you. Again no disrespect maybe you can't hear the difference and I can.

Angel


Hi Angel,
A little advice, you're only going to get frustrated trying to convert people who don't believe in the differences cables can make.

Believe me, I'm with you 100% on this. I have a lot of experience with all sorts of cables, all different brands, IC's, power cords, and speaker wire. I basically stopped arguing with people about it because I (like so many others) have heard the very distinct differences between them, and enjoyed the wonderful improvements brought about by putting the right cables into my system. It's true as Dolph says that the difference is usually not huge, but it is often not difficult to hear, and even a small change can make all the difference in the world IMO. This depends on the components in your system and the synergy they have with the cables you're using, you have to find something that works.

To TheReeler: perhaps your ear can't hear the difference, but you shouldn't tell anyone else that they don't, because you don't know. I hate to tell you this, but something in your test went seriously wrong if people weren't able to hear the differences between expensive and cheap cables. I know this for a fact because, as I stated above, I've heard the differences, it's pretty obvious when you do A/B comparisons.

braxus
09-17-2008, 11:37 PM
Can anyone list off some common brand cables that you'd recommend? The best I have are yes Monster cables series III and they are better then the basic stock type cable the majority of the rest of my systems are using. I wouldn't want to spend more then $300 per cable pair. I would need at least a dozen or more cables in my system because of all the units that are hooked up to it. My speaker cables are stereo shop half way decent ones which are around 12 guage. Still not a lot of money though, but I biwire my speakers so that helps.

gamve
09-18-2008, 12:19 AM
Can anyone list off some common brand cables that you'd recommend? The best I have are yes Monster cables series III and they are better then the basic stock type cable the majority of the rest of my systems are using. I wouldn't want to spend more then $300 per cable pair. I would need at least a dozen or more cables in my system because of all the units that are hooked up to it. My speaker cables are stereo shop half way decent ones which are around 12 guage. Still not a lot of money though, but I biwire my speakers so that helps.

Hi Brax, I've used these and they are hard to beat. The ones I actually use now in my system are the same wire just bigger dimensions
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Van-Den-Hul-MAGNUM-Hybrid-speaker-cables-2-5M-VDH-MH_W0QQitemZ250289441666QQihZ015QQcategoryZ109861Q QrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
and same thing different config
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/4-x2-5m-Van-Den-Hul-Speaker-Cable-for-McIntosh-Amps_W0QQitemZ230290243731QQihZ013QQcategoryZ14966 QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItem
This person is also a good and reliable seller, have used several times in the past
Cheers
G

gamve
09-18-2008, 12:43 AM
These interconnects are cheap but very very good. The shielding is fantastic and they have nice locking RCA's. I use these between my phono stage and pre amp and also for signal sources. They used to be branded Response cables. They used to be stocked locally but were withdrawn for god knows why.
http://www.buyoyo.com/buyoyo/eng/ProductDisplay.do?prrfnbr=3723810&prtype=17

TheReeler
09-18-2008, 01:37 AM
To TheReeler: perhaps your ear can't hear the difference, but you shouldn't tell anyone else that they don't, because you don't know. I hate to tell you this, but something in your test went seriously wrong if people weren't able to hear the differences between expensive and cheap cables. I know this for a fact because, as I stated above, I've heard the differences, it's pretty obvious when you do A/B comparisons.
Hi Mr.Lin. There's an error. I don't reply the questionary. The questionary is always anwsered by the owners in THEIR setups in THEIR homes with THEIR components.

Imagine that I ask you if you can find differences between coke and coffee and you say "of course, I do!".

But after making a blind test at your home, sit in your sofa in the middle of your leaving room, you fail the tests and ALL is recorded in video so that you can watch it after the test.

Well, that is the scenario. In the owner's home and with his toys, not mine.

We use even Audio Precision hardware and software to take measurements about all that exists. Audio is science. If something is different, it can be measured, believe it or not, this is just science.

I don't want to make a large and never ending posts about this. I've posted the webpage where can be readed exactly the protocol used by the audio group which I'm member of.

Thanks for reading *Hi5*

niklasthedolphin
09-18-2008, 04:08 AM
Can anyone list off some common brand cables that you'd recommend? The best I have are yes Monster cables series III and they are better then the basic stock type cable the majority of the rest of my systems are using. I wouldn't want to spend more then $300 per cable pair. I would need at least a dozen or more cables in my system because of all the units that are hooked up to it. My speaker cables are stereo shop half way decent ones which are around 12 guage. Still not a lot of money though, but I biwire my speakers so that helps.

If you are not going to experiment with matching different cables on different pieces of equipment and if you're not going experiment with multicabling then one single cable manufacturer I can recommend cables from is MIT (http://www.mitcables.com/).

"dolph"

braxus
09-18-2008, 11:59 AM
If you are not going to experiment with matching different cables on different pieces of equipment and if you're not going experiment with multicabling then one single cable manufacturer I can recommend cables from is MIT (http://www.mitcables.com/).

"dolph"


Unfortunately I don't have that kind of funds to buy many different expensive cables to try out. When you are spending a minimum of $300 on a pair, and you need at least 12 pairs, then you can't afford to make a bad choice on cables. Thanks for your recommendation. I looked them up and their is a dealer in the city not far from me. (For my note) They are at:

Aralex Accoustics
106-42 Fawcett Road
Coquitlam BC V3K-6X9 Canada
Phone: (800) 663-6732

As I called them and they gave me some prices on two series- the AVT series and the Shotgun series. Any recommendations between the two (other then one is obviously more expensive)? Anyone who has any thoughts on MIT give a shout.

Mr. Lin
09-18-2008, 09:26 PM
Hi Mr.Lin. There's an error. I don't reply the questionary. The questionary is always anwsered by the owners in THEIR setups in THEIR homes with THEIR components.

Imagine that I ask you if you can find differences between coke and coffee and you say "of course, I do!".

But after making a blind test at your home, sit in your sofa in the middle of your leaving room, you fail the tests and ALL is recorded in video so that you can watch it after the test.

Well, that is the scenario. In the owner's home and with his toys, not mine.

We use even Audio Precision hardware and software to take measurements about all that exists. Audio is science. If something is different, it can be measured, believe it or not, this is just science.

I don't want to make a large and never ending posts about this. I've posted the webpage where can be readed exactly the protocol used by the audio group which I'm member of.

Thanks for reading *Hi5*

Actually when I said you shouldn't tell people what they don't hear, I was referring to what you said to "iamhifi." I am not interested in an in-depth debate about this anymore either, but I'm just telling you, whatever happened in your test happened, but the differences are very real, and to say otherwise may be your experience, but it is not true that they all sound the same and cannot improve the sound of your system. It is also a fallacy that the very expensive cables don't sound better, because all the ones I own do something very good, each in a different way, though none are perfect as that's basically impossible so long as you're using any cables. Yes, there is snake oil out there, but a high price tag does not automatically mean that's what it is.

Also, just because we don't know how to measure the differences people hear with cables doesn't mean they're not there. I know I trust my ears, I'm quite certain about what I hear, and therefore I'm not really interested in whether or not tests or measurements have verified or disproved the whole thing.

I'll wrap this up by saying that it is certainly possible to achieve great sound with relatively inexpensive cables. The "boutique" cables are a tweak, and one can choose to venture into this world, though it's probably better to do so only once everything else in one's system is very strong.

gamve
09-19-2008, 12:02 AM
Actually when I said you shouldn't tell people what they don't hear, I was referring to what you said to "iamhifi." I am not interested in an in-depth debate about this anymore either, but I'm just telling you, whatever happened in your test happened, but the differences are very real, and to say otherwise may be your experience, but it is not true that they all sound the same and cannot improve the sound of your system. It is also a fallacy that the very expensive cables don't sound better, because all the ones I own do something very good, each in a different way, though none are perfect as that's basically impossible so long as you're using any cables. Yes, there is snake oil out there, but a high price tag does not automatically mean that's what it is.

Also, just because we don't know how to measure the differences people hear with cables doesn't mean they're not there. I know I trust my ears, I'm quite certain about what I hear, and therefore I'm not really interested in whether or not tests or measurements have verified or disproved the whole thing.

I'll wrap this up by saying that it is certainly possible to achieve great sound with relatively inexpensive cables. The "boutique" cables are a tweak, and one can choose to venture into this world, though it's probably better to do so only once everything else in one's system is very strong.

I agree with this point of view. please see my post below with the link. I have just recieved in the mail this morning 4 x 1.0m interconnects and 4 x 0.75m interconects which cost a grand total of less than $100.00 US delivered to Australia. I would gladly put these up against your bloody nordust or your Blah Blah Cardas Blah megga buck cables and I assure you you would look bloody silly and would be seriously embarrased about the ammount of money you could have saved and spent on a good deck or a new phono cartridge. Good audio cables can be had for very little cash. IMHO anything better than "good" cables suffers from the laws of diminishing returns.

gamve
09-19-2008, 03:18 AM
Just finished rewiring my system with my cheapie made in china interconnects. No burn in or any other procedure thingies. Sound superb strait out of the box. If you are considering buying interconnects at $200-300 a pair, I challange you to try these first at less than $40.00 a pair delivered to USA, and give yourself a reality check. If you only want cables for braging rights (well I paid XX dollars for these and don't they sound good) I can sell you some I paid way too much money for and don't use cause these cheapies sound just as good and have the bonus of excellent shielding, PM me if you are interested.

TheReeler
09-19-2008, 04:00 AM
Agree 100%

You can make also your DIY cables for a low cost and with high quality. Just buy, for example, "Neutrik" connectors with a good wire, like "Eurocable". You'll have a very good result that is used also in the professional recording and PA sector.

Mr. Lin
09-19-2008, 09:58 PM
I agree with this point of view. please see my post below with the link. I have just recieved in the mail this morning 4 x 1.0m interconnects and 4 x 0.75m interconects which cost a grand total of less than $100.00 US delivered to Australia. I would gladly put these up against your bloody nordust or your Blah Blah Cardas Blah megga buck cables and I assure you you would look bloody silly and would be seriously embarrased about the ammount of money you could have saved and spent on a good deck or a new phono cartridge. Good audio cables can be had for very little cash. IMHO anything better than "good" cables suffers from the laws of diminishing returns.

The diminishing returns thing is true, the differences you get as you go up in price with cables become smaller. And yes, you can get good cable for not that much (example: Anti Cable). However, in most cases what you're going to get with good, inexpensive interconnects is still not going to perform the way some of the more expensive ones do. It's a fact of life in audio, if you want to achieve the last bit of detail and resolution that cables can allow, I'm talking the maximum, you're going to have to pay. Most people aren't willing to, or, more understandably, can't afford do this, but I urge you not to dismiss Cardas, Nordost, or things like cable burn in devices, until you've actually tried them for yourself, perhaps by borrowing a pair of cables you can't even afford from a dealer just to see if it really makes a difference.

gamve
09-20-2008, 01:00 AM
The diminishing returns thing is true, the differences you get as you go up in price with cables become smaller. And yes, you can get good cable for not that much (example: Anti Cable). However, in most cases what you're going to get with good, inexpensive interconnects is still not going to perform the way some of the more expensive ones do. It's a fact of life in audio, if you want to achieve the last bit of detail and resolution that cables can allow, I'm talking the maximum, you're going to have to pay. Most people aren't willing to, or, more understandably, can't afford do this, but I urge you not to dismiss Cardas, Nordost, or things like cable burn in devices, until you've actually tried them for yourself, perhaps by borrowing a pair of cables you can't even afford from a dealer just to see if it really makes a difference.

I have actually tried these things for myself (Nordust, Cardas, Audio Metalurgy, Aural Thrills and others). This is my whole point, I am damm sure that I would have been much happier buying a better cartdridge, tapedeck, CD player etc that would have given more tangible and obvious results as well as "more bang for my buck" so to speak. I tend to agree with Dolph on this issue that cables give the last 1% of the equation. IMHO it's better to fix up the the other 99% first and get value for your money. I agree if you pay the money there are some truly great bits of cable availible (see my speaker cable pictured) but value for bucks spent? Naaah

TheReeler
09-20-2008, 04:04 AM
Here are my DIY cables. It can seen the diference between then and the commercial cheap ones. The final price for the user is the more or less the same *eyepop* These cables are the ones that interconnects a router dbx 400 with a NR dbx 150.

This wire is for professional use in mics and instruments, so is the class of wire that use the musicians in their instruments *reelspin*

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc46/thereeler/cables1.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc46/thereeler/cables2.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc46/thereeler/cables3.jpg


The wire itself costs between 25 and 30 euros a roll of 25 metres.
Each individual connector costs 1.2 euros.

Now with these ingredients and an iron to solder all together... voilŠ!!!

gamve
09-20-2008, 05:05 AM
Here are my DIY cables. It can seen the diference between then and the commercial cheap ones. The final price for the user is the more or less the same *eyepop* These cables are the ones that interconnects a router dbx 400 with a NR dbx 150.

This wire is for professional use in mics and instruments, so is the class of wire that use the musicians in their instruments *reelspin*

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc46/thereeler/cables1.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc46/thereeler/cables2.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc46/thereeler/cables3.jpg


The wire itself costs between 25 and 30 euros a roll of 25 metres.
Each individual connector costs 1.2 euros.

Now with these ingredients and an iron to solder all together... voilŠ!!!

Top job, Bet they sound good to.
I have made a lot of my own as well. I got onto some mil spec silver plated copper with cooked on teflon insulation a few years back the shield is the same as the inner core. This stuff sounds very good in short lengths. Not suited to longer runs as the capacitance is a bit high. I also tried interconncts using twisted pairs from Cat6 cable. these work as well.
Cheers
G

TheReeler
09-20-2008, 05:15 AM
All my DIY cables are of a exact length so that I can ensure that they will arrive at the other point, but they won't be too long.

I use the same connnectors with video signals, but with different wire to match the correct 75 ohms with YUV signals that are absolutely much more width than any audio signal, and from the sources (DVDs) to the receiver there are 3 metres. After doing all Digital Video Essentials tests of resolution, picture quality... etc, all were passed with the highest result.

My 2 cents would be, in first place, to known which type of correct wire to use, and after that, to build your own *Hi5*

In audio, if you need long lengths, then the cable must be balanced and no problem even with 50 metres. For domestic audio, lenghts most times won't be longer than 3 metres between audio devices.

utahusker
09-20-2008, 02:06 PM
I find that if I hand separate each strand of Norwegian silver wire and insulate them individually with Bee's wax,then housing the entire assembly with teflonized Arabian Horse hair the soundstage becomes more three dimensional.

Also on a side note I believe 1/2"northern maple sandwiched between 3/8" carbon fiber sheets make excellent amp stands creating detail and depth only magic pebbles can equal.*hypnot*

Being serious now, I use Blue Jeans which is what Mark Deneen, the owner of Juicy music recommends for interconnects. He builds some of the best pre amps out there at a very good price.
For my speakers, I found a great deal on Zu cables. That being said, I don't take too much stock in the sound differences in cable. Especially if one doesn't want to perform a blind test to prove the difference. That is the ONLY test that would prove a difference in sound between cables IMHO. Till then I'll stick to quality non-boutique cable which doesn't require a second mortgage.

Mr. Lin
09-20-2008, 05:34 PM
I have actually tried these things for myself (Nordust, Cardas, Audio Metalurgy, Aural Thrills and others). This is my whole point, I am damm sure that I would have been much happier buying a better cartdridge, tapedeck, CD player etc that would have given more tangible and obvious results as well as "more bang for my buck" so to speak. I tend to agree with Dolph on this issue that cables give the last 1% of the equation. IMHO it's better to fix up the the other 99% first and get value for your money. I agree if you pay the money there are some truly great bits of cable availible (see my speaker cable pictured) but value for bucks spent? Naaah

Ah, I see what you're saying. You know, I can totally understand your feelings on this, that it's not worth spending huge amounts of money to get that last percent. I happen to think there's much more than 1% to be gained, but regardless, it is true you're not getting "bang" for your buck.

TheReeler, the DIY cables look quite nice. Are those Neutrik plugs?

TheReeler
09-20-2008, 06:11 PM
Are those Neutrik plugs?
You're right ;)

MacGyver
09-20-2008, 06:29 PM
member DINGUS sent me one of the many identical sets of DIY stereo L/Rs that he made so i could audition and ruminate upon them. i tried them out on my 1986 DENON DCD-1500 CDP. my reference cable for the DENON are a set of 1986 PHOENIX GOLD coaxials...

THE TEST SOURCE:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/DSCF0453.jpg

THE CABLES: (BLACK INSULATED PAIR; DIYs, CLEAR PAIR, PHOENIX GOLD)

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/DINGUS-LACABLES.jpg


anyway, these are comprised of two fine pure silver wires jacketed in bulk shrink tubing terminated with NEUTRIK RCAs. i got these just yesterday, tried them out right away, and immediately came to the conclusion that while these are of a very clear character, they are also too "polite" sounding. there is a definite treble emphasis, and most of bass and mid body that the DENON is famous for is gone with this cable. in sum, i prefer my PHOENIX GOLD reference as i simply find it to be a more pleasent sound to my ears. many people insist that a cable is a cable, and any perceived differences in the audible sound is a product of the auditioner's imagination. still, i feel that i can confidently swear upon the proverbial stack of bibles that the very much audible difference between these two cables is as night versus day...