2-track master dubs

[user510]

Is anyone hunting down and playing 2-track 15 ips master dubs?

The reason I ask is I've heard a few demo reels and now feel drawn to the medium.

-Steve

[Nak_novice]

Is anyone hunting down and playing 2-track 15 ips master dubs?

The reason I ask is I've heard a few demo reels and now feel drawn to the medium.

-Steve

Sounds great Steve, what have you heard?

[user510]

When I was at VSAC 08 there was a guy by the name of Charlie King going from room to room with his Stellavox r2r playing a selection of demo reels he had. These were master dubs of which he and some other guys had a collection of.

What I heard was some big-band jazz from circa 1960 or thereabout. I don't know the players but the quality of play was very high. Top tier. Also, sound quality was some of the best sounding reproduced music I can recall ever hearing.

-Steve

[joeljoel1947]

15 ips 2-track dubs of the original reels:
http://www.tapeproject.com/

I'm waiting on my 1st tapes from them still.

I've seen a few 15 ips 2-track things on Ebay but they are usually expensive and the tapes backround (history) is somewhat "mysterious".:confused:

[user510]

Hi Joel.
This is rather my impression that I'm developing. Master dubs are rare, expensive and from lesser known origins.
Apart from amateur 'boots' taken at rock concerts, or other venues, where do these come from? Did the 'major' labels also issue 15 ips dubs in limited numbers? I'm getting the impression that they did. For instance I know of one guy in Italy who claims to have a 15 ips of Kind Of Blue. Original Columbia issue. He didn't say what he had to pay. I didn't ask.


I'm aware of "The Tape Project". This looks pretty interesting.....and also rather expensive. Someone, somewhere else, said of The Tape Project that it was too bad this enterprise didn't also get in on the recent Blue Note vinyl reissue project. In any case, the price would likely be beyond my budget.

Still, it should be worth the hunt to find 15 ips master dubs of 'major' albums when possible. I'm aware of one re-seller who offers a short list of this type of recording. Those prices are considerable, but not as high as what "The Tape Project" is getting.

One solid impression I have is this: You can take the finest vinyl playback rig. Playing audiophool vinyl. And then find a 15 ips master dub of that same recording on a much less expensive RTR and, the tape is clearly the better sounding reproduction.

-Steve

[ctcdaggett]

How about www.irvmusic.com/catdir/ooo.htm? aka Master Dubs
My experience with their vinyl has always been great, but not cheap.

Comments/feedback appreciated.........no affiliation with them.

bob, Newberry Sprgs CA

Crowns, Teacs & Ampexes and more Ampexes

[user510]

Hi Bob.
re: Irvington Music. I was looking over their catalog and did not see any titles that drew me in.... particularly at those prices. However, in the above post where I mention the guy in Italy who scored the 15 ips KOB, he says he got that from Irvington. So I guess you have to get in contact with them to find out what they actually have.

I've managed to snag (via eBay) a few 7-1/2 ips pre-recorded tapes made by the major labels. At least those will be something to play once the Otari gets here.

-Steve

[tapepath]

Hello,
I've bought some master tape dubs from Irvington, in the past, as well as their 2 and 4 track pre-recorded tapes and was well satisfied with the results. I think there was one tape that had some severe drop outs, but they quickly made good on the return and refund.
I have subscribed to the Tape Project (junior subscription) and am waiting for the first tape to arrive. There's also a guy who is providing very high quality copies of his live classical recordings that I'm waiting for, www.awardaudio.com. I think is his site.
Cheers, Ken

[user510]

Irvington seems like a well regarded retailer. I keep hearing positives about them. Good to know. I emailed them and they returned a list of their current tape inventory which has more titles than is shown on their webpage.

re: awardaudio. Unless I am reading this wrong, the performances are transfered from a digital medium. Link here for more info: http://www.awardaudio.com/HRTD.html

In a case like that, I see no advantage in getting anything other than the CD.

What I'd really like to see is the main companies that currently offer re-mastered audiophile vinyl to also issue dubs of the 1/2 inch tape 2-track 30-ips masters that they cut their lacquers from onto 1/4 inch 15 ips tape for us home listeners. Put another way, competition for The Tape Project, which presently seems like the only game going.

-Steve

[joeljoel1947]

Hi,
I recently bought the Detroit Chamber Trio tape and cd from Joseph at Award Audio. I also got the chance to meet him because of the fact he lives less then 30-minutes from me! Yes, he records in 24/192 digital. The only high-resolution format that he feels that can handle the transfer from that domain to the analog world correctly is via open-reel tape. You can see a brief review I did of the experience on AA here:
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tape&m=11998

I own BOTH his 16/44.1 cd and a 7.5 IPS open reel version of his Detroit Chamber work and trust me, "I see no advantage in getting anything other than the CD" is far from the truth.

Truncating from the 24/192 master down to 16/44.1 loses a lot of information, especially in the "air" and treble department on top. The reel sounds so much better (open, realistic, lively and "correct") to me then the cd!!

All that said, I also believe that tape does something special even to digital music so keep that in the back of your mind. That is the same feeling Joseph has as well. Lately, I have been transferring SACD's and HDCD's to 7.5 and 15 IPS open reel tape and I'll be damned if I don't prefer the tape every time!

I have coaxed Joseph from Award Audio to help me to begin recording in an all-analog world as well. I have a few friends that are musicians and Joseph has graciously agreed to help me with his experience (and expensive equipment) to give it a go direct to tape. We will see where that goes, but I am excited! :)

[user510]

Hi Joel.
thanks for the insight into this recording. Obviously I had written it off without fully understanding what it is. Still, I'm going to have to experience this to believe it.....as you obviously have.

-Steve

[user510]

Hi Joel.
thanks for the insight into this recording. Obviously I had written it off without fully understanding what it is. Still, I'm going to have to experience this to believe it.....as you obviously have.

-Steve

[Joseph L]

Hi everyone,

Joseph L here from Award Audio...I have a few comments and personal observations that I can share about my "Master" tapes and the idea of high resolution digital to tape but I will not be able to write it down till tomorrow night.

In short Yes, it is dramatically better than the CD and very analogue like!

In the mean time I have enjoyed the discussion and great Reel to Reel listening to all.

Enjoy the music!
Joseph:)

[Joseph L]

Hi again all,

Well here are my personal comments/observations on digital to tape. First let me state that I am the engineer and producer of the Award Audio recordings and tapes, so you may consider my comments biased if you wish, but they are in the sense that I enjoy audio and am enthusiastic about the fidelity of Reel to Reel and want to share it with others. Now, as for how a tape from a digital master is better than a CD, or why is the tape better than even the high resolution digital master... here are a few of my own reasons. First off, tape has the ability, in my opinion, to produce tonality, instrument timbre and spatial information better than a CD. Next, and I am sure this will be controversial but is my own theory, I believe that the human ear likes dither or a bit of "noise", and tape by it's nature has a certain amount of dither or noise in the signal and I think that in very small quantity this is pleasing to the ear. Now don't get me wrong I don't like "tape hiss" but I think there may be an aspect to it that enhances musical timber. Of course beyond this we have the endless discussions of why analog sounds better than digital. The real thing is not why it sounds better but simply if it sounds better to you or I, then it is better to us and what we prefer to hear. Most people that I have found will prefer a tape's sound over a digital source even if they both originate from the same digital master. What I find happening is that the overall perception of natural sound and instrument tone improves with tape.

Specifically, why does my "Trio" tape " sound better than the CD". For starters the source of the tape is a high resolution digital master at 24bit 192K. BUT that is only part of the story, as important as the actual capture resolution is, all the other parts of the chain, microphones, preamps, cables and power sources and last but not least the digital to analogue and analogue to digital converter. These all play huge factors in the fidelity of the digital source making the digital high resolution master FAR superior to the CD reduction. By using painstaking selection and connection of equipment this High Resolution Digital Master is then transferred to tape producing a master tape that is much better than a CD and, to some, even more desirable sounding than the digital master it originates from. Once we now have the tape master we get to playback, it has been my experience that even an average tape machine will allow a person to hear the superiority of the tape and it takes a poor tape machine and a good CD front end to tip the balance in favor of the CD. I have never experienced it the other way around where even the most outstanding CD front end can out-do an exceptional tape deck. So to sum it up, even though the source is from high resolution digital it is a carefully created high resolution master that sounds much better than a CD mix down and further, by transferring this digital master to tape, we produce, in effect, a tape master that retains all the resolution and imparts a significant amount of analogue character. So ultimately this is a subjective opinion and will vary among listeners but there is no contest to my ears and for the others...well just send it back.

Enjoy the conversation and thanks Matt for a great tape forum.
Joseph L

[braxus]

I also find in addition to what you mention, that some if not all tapes color the sound in a more pleasing way. Since CDs don't do this, the flat sound of digital may be less desirable then say a tape of the same thing.

[Joseph L]

Yes, you are right, and you can use the word "color". Each type of tape has it's own character i.e. SM900 SM911 etc. And in fact each component in every part of the chain imparts it's own "color" from the strings or drum heads down to the final playback gear.

[Joseph L]

Let me just answer another question that many people ask.

Why not record direct to tape from the get go?

Ok my answer, first I have been more acquainted with the digital age, and in my 40s, only recently have developed my enthusiasm for tape playback. Second, it is also nearly impossible to find musicians that are willing or able to go through the effort to make a master tape that does not require tedious and difficult or imposable edits. Most have become so accustom to easy edits and patchwork that it takes significant amount of convincing to just get it down to several dozen edits per piece. Are we spoiled? Yes we are! Both the engineers and performers. I know, there are those legends of history that can make any edit on tape known to man but I am not one and it is truly a lost art.

Let's face it there are a great many benefits to the editing ability with a digital master and along with this (call it heresy) but there are some DSP ambience enhancements that can be made that allow for much more flexibility in the recording venue and the logistics of getting things together to make a recording happen. I have spent the last 12 years recording to the highest resolution digital with carefully selected and personally auditioned components and know the fidelity that can be achieved with choosing equipment carefully. So is direct to tape better, perhaps it is still, but it suffers on the practical side in a digital world. So here we have the best of digital and analogue coming together to offer some new viable material for Reel to Reel and tickling the ears of those with an interest.

[joeljoel1947]

Great posts Joseph. I agree with everything you wrote. IMHO, the tape does something special---even to a digital source, which cannot be ignored.

Thanks for chiming in! ;)

[jcmusic]

Hi Joseph, my question to you is when will you have some other music? I am looking for Jazz or Classic Rock.

Jay

[twogoodears]

Hi Bob.
re: Irvington Music. I was looking over their catalog and did not see any titles that drew me in.... particularly at those prices. However, in the above post where I mention the guy in Italy who scored the 15 ips KOB, he says he got that from Irvington. So I guess you have to get in contact with them to find out what they actually have.


I've managed to snag (via eBay) a few 7-1/2 ips pre-recorded tapes made by the major labels. At least those will be something to play once the Otari gets here.

-Steve

Hi Steve... and thanks for introducing myself on this nice lunatics forum:cool:
Hi all... aehm, I'm "the guy from Italy" who scored KOB, but also, as Steve is aware of, Bill Evans', Carmen MacRae's, Thelonius Monks', Shankar/Menhuin and Shankar/Previn's et al. - all were purchased at Irvington Music - Portland, OR (USA).
The above costed me in early to mid-90s between USD 75 and 150 ea.... I'm always grooving in my own live recordings so - beside the current low USD - I didn't purchased more thereafter, as I'm not aware of Irvington's master-dubs offering these days...

Anyway, I consider these 2 or 3rd generation 2 tracks reels - mostly at 15 IPS, as a nice adding to my music collection... at least as proof - i.e.- clearly showing the disasters and shorcomings RIAA eq. made to recorded music...

My humble advice is - also if giving my full support to recent "commercial" outfits - go DIY, fearless and proudly!

Also the local youth chamber orchestra when carefully, lovingly (self) recorded with nice R2R, fresh Emtec tape and cheap mikes may give shivers and tons of musically involving shivers and satisfaction a go-go... homo faber, doing things... this is the reply, so easy to be difficult, in these days poor, globalized Flat Earth.

Happy spinning,

Stefano

P.S. - nice asking about origin of masterdubs... when reading Ashley Khan's superb books on the making of Trane's and Miles' masterpieces, I remember I often read about copies given to musicians, tech-heads, label chaps, producers... so a given amount of these tapes quite windly and semi-officially circulated back in the hey days... maybe some copies were taken from these tapes... anyway, I'm almost sure some copies left record-companies offices in less polite and clean ways... BUT, maybe, after decades this ONLY add some Dick Tracy's shadow to this tapes history...

[twogoodears]

Hi Bob.
re: Irvington Music. I was looking over their catalog and did not see any titles that drew me in.... particularly at those prices. However, in the above post where I mention the guy in Italy who scored the 15 ips KOB, he says he got that from Irvington. So I guess you have to get in contact with them to find out what they actually have.


I've managed to snag (via eBay) a few 7-1/2 ips pre-recorded tapes made by the major labels. At least those will be something to play once the Otari gets here.

-Steve

Hi Steve... and thanks for introducing me to this nice lunatics forum:cool:
Hi all... aehm, I'm "the guy from Italy" who scored KOB, but also, as Steve is aware of, Bill Evans', Carmen MacRae's, Thelonius Monks', Shankar/Menhuin and Shankar/Previn's et al. - all were purchased at Irvington Music - Portland, OR (USA).
The above costed me in early to mid-90s between USD 75 and 150 ea.... I'm always grooving in my own live recordings so - beside the current low USD - I didn't purchased more thereafter, as I'm not aware of Irvington's master-dubs offering these days...

Anyway, I consider these 2 or 3rd generation 2 tracks reels - mostly at 15 IPS, as a nice adding to my music collection... at least as proof - i.e.- clearly showing the disasters and shorcomings RIAA eq. made to recorded music...

My humble advice is - also if giving my full support to recent "commercial" outfits - go DIY, fearless and proudly!

Also the local youth chamber orchestra when carefully, lovingly (self) recorded with nice R2R, fresh Emtec tape and cheap mikes may give shivers and tons of musically involving shivers and satisfaction a go-go... homo faber, doing things... this is the reply, so easy to be difficult, in these days poor, globalized Flat Earth.

Happy spinning,

Stefano

P.S. - nice asking about origin of masterdubs... when reading Ashley Khan's superb books on the making of Trane's and Miles' masterpieces, I remember I often read about copies given to musicians, tech-heads, label chaps, producers... so a given amount of these tapes quite windly and semi-officially circulated back in the hey days... maybe some copies were taken from these tapes... anyway, I'm almost sure some copies left record-companies offices in less polite and clean ways... BUT, maybe, after decades this ONLY add some Dick Tracy's shadow to these tapes history... no a Yakuza affaire, indeed...

[Joseph L]

Hi Jay,

I wish I had more to offer too. I am primarily a classical recordist and that is just my field. Time being what it is...well I can only do so much. I am working on another release of a recording that has just come out on CD, but it is the same type of music by a French composer. I think it is great stuff and it will feature a neat mix of instruments with short pieces for flute, horn, bassoon and harp, but again not for everyone.

I am planning to do a project this summer with a bluegrass band for a potential fall release. This should be an exciting project with a broader audience appeal.

[jcmusic]

Well Joesph that's ok I had to ask, maybe one day I will want a Classical recording. I don't know much at all about them so I wouldn't know one from another.

Jay