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View Full Version : Scotch Classic: Your Experiences?


Des-Lab
05-26-2008, 01:36 PM
Well now I'm more confused than ever. Most tapes, I have nailed down pretty good as to what I can expect from them. But the one that stubbornly remains an elusive moving target for me is the Scotch "Classic". It was [from what I've been able to learn] Scotch/3M's "flagship" 'audiophile' tape from about 1975-1978, give or take a year.

I've been acquainted with this tape for most of my entire life; my father has/had a few of them in his collection. But it was also the tape I first discovered "sticky shed" with. The ones in my dads collection (10" X 3600's) first began to stick in the late 80's. They got progressively worse and by the mid 1990's, were completely unplayable and had essentially seized up beyond repair (thankfully my father had track sheets written down for all of this tapes).

In the late 90's or early 2000's, I bought a ten-pack sealed/NOS case of 7" X 1800' of these. All of them. Every single one. Was sticky and unusable straight out of the box. I tried to fast wind them just to see, and less than halfway through them, it brought my deck to a screeching halt. So all but one (which I kept for "scent"imental reasons) of them were unceremoniously disposed of.

A short time later, I happened across a dozen or so 10" X 3600' NOS ones for about $5 or $6 per tape. I figured they were worth more than that just in the boxes and reels alone. So I bought them. I opened up about five or six of them. I noticed something unusual: they varied substantially in both scent (c'mon...who here DOESN'T like the smell of a fresh tape?) as well as fill height in the reel. Some filled the reel to just about the top level of the windage hole cutouts. Others, a good half inch above that. Yet they were all 3600's. I noticed that the "fuller" ones had the same scent as the ones in my fathers collection as well as the one 7" I still had. So naturally, I assumed it would be no good. So I dumped a couple of them and [re]filled with fresh pancakes.

Then, I took one of the "other" types. The one that had a different scent and was a lot 'shorter' in terms of filled height on the reel. I tested it and much to my surprise...NO sticky shed! It unwound and re-wound perfectly without the slightest signs of drag, hesitation, or stickiness. I tried doing a test recording on it and it actually didn't come out half bad. The threshold of distortion was a bit lower than I was used to. No doubt due to the fact that no deck at the time could possibly deliver the punch of a signal that the X-2000R does. But it recorded with crystal clear clarity and if I would remember to record a little 'cooler' than I normally do, this tape would perform like a champ; essentially undifferentiated from Maxell XLI or Quantegy #407.

Today, I made VinylDavids tape. I pulled out a roll of the "suspicious" smelling Classic, removed it in pancake form, loaded it onto an empty reel, loaded Davids pancake, and recycled the box and reel. I was going to dump it. But something inside told me to preserve it intact.

Well curiosity finally got the better of me. Since I had never, actually TRIED this particular flavor of Classic on these 10" tapes; I had, based on past experience, simply been assuming they were no good. And had been dumping them straight out of the box. So I decided to give it a whirl. I had a pile of towels and Q-tips and was ready to spend a half hour on my back cleaning up a sticky shed mess. But for some reason, I went ahead with it anyway. And I loaded it on the X-2000R and hit the fast-forward.

Imagine my jaw on the ground when it went the full length at full speed without hesitation. Here I was thinking that within a few hundred feet, the deck would be down to 'play' speed in fast-forward mode.

Nope.

It went all the way to the end. No hesitation. No sticking. Nothing. No mess on the heads or guide pins. No pile of oxide below the deck. Nothing. Which is even more amazing considering that the tape was 30+ years old and being unspooled for the very first time.

Nope.

Was 'rarin' to go'. Did a test record and the results were the same as my last test: crystal clear recording with a low point of saturation. Would work great on a deck from that era (such as a Teac A-3300SX). But on mine, I'd have to reduce the gain a bit.

So now, I'm more confused than ever. I have repeatedly advised others to avoid this tape like the plague. I based that on FIRST HAND experience with that tape indeed failing to sticky shed.

But now, here I have a whole bunch of them that, as far as I can tell, are as good as new and would work just fine. So I am troubled for three reasons.

1. Why did SOME of them (from different batches) fail while others have stood the test of time?

2. How many people have read my posts advising to stay away from it did just that, could've very well passed up some perfectly fine tape at a reasonable cost?

3. I hate the inconsistency. As I said. All other tapes I've tried have consistently produced the same results with predictable regularity. It really helps me in giving descriptions and advice. But with this tape, now I have to elevate it from the "stay away" column and move it to the "use at own risk" category.

What are your thoughts an experiences on the matter?

Attached are a couple of "stock"/ "file" photos I have of the stuff.

Doug_Olitsky
05-26-2008, 02:57 PM
I have 2 reels of the stuff (used from a record store) and they are good.... no mess or fuss.
too bad the music recorded on them is crap, 1/4 trk and 7 ips

vinyldavid
05-26-2008, 03:23 PM
Hmmmmm....I have the 4 channel version of the A-3300.....I might look into getting some just to see what happens......

Rob-F
09-04-2010, 08:41 AM
The present condition of an old tape probably depends on the storage conditions the tape was subjected to. That might explain the variability in the condition of various examples of the same type of tape.

Des-Lab
09-05-2010, 05:53 PM
Well I have a dozen or so NOS rolls of Classic 10" x 3600' left and it's just sitting here waiting for me to get around to dumping it and re-loading the reels with new LPR35 and/or Quantegy 457.

vinyldavid
09-05-2010, 06:11 PM
if you were gonna part with it, how much would you want?

Des-Lab
09-05-2010, 06:17 PM
*lmao*

Sorry bro. But the Classics aren't for sale. My plan is to keep the boxes, reels, and sleeves and breathe new life into them by replacing that tape. That way, I get the best of both worlds: the cool factor of those unique padded boxes, the neat sleeves, and the elegant reels while being able to enjoy them for years to come by using fresh and stable tape. Was it you that coined the word "FrankenScotch"? That's exactly what I'm doing with these. I've already done a couple and I'll eventually do them all.

Trust me bro. You don't want to mess with Scotch Classic the TAPE. Yeah, it may be NOS but it's 35+ years old and on the SSS offenders list even if not every single one actually exhibits that condition.

teac3440
09-05-2010, 08:24 PM
I have a Copuple 7" reels of scotch classic and 1 was good the rest were sticky. I like using 3M996. i have also had good experiences with Scotch 227.

vinyldavid
09-05-2010, 09:51 PM
if they don't shed, I'm prolly gonna be after them. I have almost NO tape here to record on, just 5 or 6 reels more of Ampex 641/2, and maybe some Scotch 175....

In the do not use pile, I have a ton of: Scotch 141 (acetate), 201 (acetate), 150, and misc off-brands. Like 200 reels. *headache*

yes I coined the Term FrankenScotch, and it's awesome.

if you ever run across any non-sheddy reels you are willing to let go of, lemme know. 7" or 10.5". Even tho almost all my machines are 10.5" capable, 7" reels are still my main size.

VintageSteve
09-06-2010, 11:55 AM
A bit OT: I recently unspooled two Scotch 290 7" reels - way bad SSS! (... my cat loved the process!). They gummed up the A-6300 heads pretty bad... that stuff is hard to clean off. *headache* I have two more reels that don't appear bad yet. Should I just deep six it all?

teac3440
09-06-2010, 12:01 PM
I have a Bunch of Scotch 142's and a few Scotch 156's i need to check out and try. i do not know if they have sticky shed or not?

Des-Lab
09-07-2010, 03:41 PM
Much to our disdain, there is generally no way to determine visually if a tape is afflicted with SSS or not. Especially if it's virgin NOS. It can totally pass the visual test with the smooth and clean and tempting looking tape pack indistinguishable from a modern Maxell, ATR, Quantegy, or RMGI. And yet within less than one tenth into one pass, bring your deck to a screeching halt as a pile of oxide quickly accumulates across the tape path.

The only reliable way I know of to conclusively determine whether or not a tape has SSS unfortunately is to actually play and/or fast wind it. I generally recommend the latter because the issue-if present will manifest itself much faster than a lesiure play speed would.

Load the tape. Press fast forward and let it go. Within seconds, you will see if the reels begin to drag and slow down. You may also hear the hideous high pitched screeching of the tape as it crosses the guides and rollers. You may see a pile of oxide begin to form. And finally, while it's still at speed, examine the single layer of unspooling tape as it comes off the pack. When the reel is at any high speed, the windage holes will sort of "blur" together (kind of like how a spinning propeller on an airplane appears visually as a blur with the individual blades being invisible). You should see if the tape is coming off freely or if it is hesitant. If it's not flush with where the gravity drop point should be and almost looks like it's going to get yanked up the other side, shut the deck down and remove the tape.

Des-Lab
09-07-2010, 08:09 PM
if they don't shed, I'm prolly gonna be after them. I have almost NO tape here to record on, just 5 or 6 reels more of Ampex 641/2, and maybe some Scotch 175....



What the heck? From what you tell us, it seems to rain gear over St. Louis, what with stuff apparently just falling out of the sky into your lap. At least that's the impression *I* seem to get. You mean to tell me that despite the innumerable decks over there that no one has any tape to go along with them? *drool*

I don't really have anything to spare right now. You may say that you'd be after those Classics but heed my warning when I tell you that odds are not in your favor and that tape is apt to be trouble. You are speaking from the view of someone starved for tape and will take anything he can get. I'm speaking from the vantage point of having actually USED the stuff.

Quantegy 642 isn't actually all *that* bad. Granted, it's close to the BOTL as far as that hierarchy goes. But you seem to enjoy a lot of the older Scotch vintages. That tape should suffice for some basic needs.

Maybe one of these days, I'll try and do some searching and see what we can dig up for you.

vinyldavid
09-07-2010, 08:27 PM
Well, I usually record at more sane levels than you do, oftentimes with less-powerful recorders like the Teac A-3340S and Teac X-3, so older forumulations, when not dropout-y, work excellently.

And yes, it does rain gear (somewhat) here, but....tapes....not so much.

Des-Lab
09-08-2010, 07:53 PM
Hey what's wrong with "running hot" and pushing the needles a couple of extra dB into the red if both the deck and tape can handle it and still produce saturation-free sound?

Too bad I forgot to take that into account when I recorded that tape for you a few years back. Had I been courteous and sensitive enough to remember what you'd be playing it on, I definitly would've cut back on the gain. Sorry. Just those X-2000R's are programmed to run very hot.

vinyldavid
09-08-2010, 08:22 PM
No, Des, you ran the tape WAY into compression. and I mean WAY into compression.

The signal is -0+3db on my Tascam 34B, but the tape just cannot handle that higher recording level of 250n/wb. I usually adjust my levels to be at -5db or less averag with typical rock music, with peaks to +3db. Yours was constantly -db to +3db. Basically, the tape can't handle it. Someday I'll post up comparisons of a FLAC rip of the same material and your tape...

Yes, the deck can handle it, but the tape just can't. Maybe with a +6 formulation your levels would be OK. Also, why push the levels? a couple db more background noise isn't noticeable, one change to another.

vinyldavid
09-09-2010, 08:16 PM
I'd never really brought up the issues I had with that tape until now, in response to something you said. No big deal, it's all in the past, and you introduced me to a LOT of new music that I wouldn't otherwise know. *Hi5*

So I thank you.

In a month, it might be taped over, as the backup master for a concert I am recording for the University City Symphony Orchestra. Gustav Holst' The Planets and assorted solo cello works. *reelspin*_*reelspin*

main master will be 24/96 digital.

bruckner9
09-10-2010, 11:31 AM
I've just finished listening to a recording I originally made on March 6, 1977, using the 'padded box' Scotch Classic, and it sounds/operates just as good as it did the day i originally used it. No sticky, no residual shedding/dusting. And let me add that I had not listened to this tape in over 20 years, as it was stored in a hallway closet, along with some other tapes.

The recording (Side A) is the Bruckner 9th Symphony, performed by Von Karajan/Berlin Phil, 'live' at the 1976 Lucerne International Festival of Music, recorded by the Swiss Radio for distribution the following year. Side B is a recording of the Hague Philharmonic, conducted by Jean Martinon, from a concert performed at the University of Maryland in 1977 (on tour), and includes the Saint-Saints Sym in A Major, the Stravinsky Symphony of Psalms, and the Nielson 4th (one of my FAVS!). Both concerts were broadcast here in LA on 3/6/77 on KPFK radio, which at the time was broadcasting in Dolby, and both are pretty good sounding recordings.

I'll run the tape through the ringers again later today and see if any problems pop up, but for now it's working fine indeed.

Des-Lab
10-13-2010, 02:39 PM
I'll tell you what. If you want to send me an empty reel (plastic, metal-your choice) in a box or envelope containing prepaid return postage, I'll transfer a few of the remaining "Classics" into them and return. But I'm snipping and keeping the leaders as well as the original "Classic" boxes and reels. I am in the process of replacing them with Quantegy 457 (damn that is seriously some sweet tape. It's a bitch to work with sometimes, but when you hit that sweet spot, it's awesome). Because I am replacing the original Classic tape with the Quantegy pancakes, I will want to keep and re-attach the original leaders along with re-using the box and reel, for authenticity.

I still have about a dozen Classics left to do. The original tape has been getting disposed of straight out of the box. But if you want it, it's yours gratis provided you send me a reel to load it on and SASE to send it to. You will receive virgin sans the transfer wind and leader-less tape otherwise n/c. I can attach a hold-down so it doesn't unravel in transit.

scotchtape
10-13-2010, 04:04 PM
I have got back into RtoR after a gap of 18 years. *hypnot*
Now have three Akais - all from ebay guys in England. Third one - a GX4000D -is in almost new and immaculate condition and cost less than the other two. £175, excluding p&p of £25 for 24-hour delivery.

I bought several Scotch Classic tapes from about 1977 after I had bought a new Tandberg 3600. I have played most of them on Akais in the last couple of weeks and found no gummy or powdery deposits.

I remember a few months after I started buying these tapes and realised they performed particularly well (were they called ferrichrome?), the dealer that had stocked them suddenly did not have them and said they were not getting any more as they "were too good, and should not have been getting sold at such a low price." Sounds like BS to me now. But that store fell out with - at the very least - Tandberg as they were selling their colour (valve) TVs for £366 in 1976, well below the company's recommended retail price (UK RRP prevailing at that time IIRC). Sounds expensive, but we had one, they were magnificent beasts in veneered teak casing and on teak legs. Volume had bass and treble control - had never seen that before on our TVs.