Dragon from decibel Audio in Chicago

[tcp100]

Hi Folks, kinda new here - but so far have found some great info. :)

I recently gave in to more base instincts and picked up a Dragon on eBay. Yep, I probably overpaid - however the seller (Decibel Audio in Chicago) claimed the deck was fully and newly tuned and overhauled. Has anyone dealt with these folks before? They seem pretty reputable, but upon calling them they weren't overly talkative and forthcoming with info - but who knows; the guy who answered the phone seemed young and may have never seen a tape before :).

I've yet to receive the deck, but I just started getting some misgivings after reading some others' experiences on eBay; I probably paid a bit extra hoping I'm getting an overhauled deck - but is there anything glaring or obvious I should look out for when I receive the unit?

Step 1 is to test out the NAAC with a known good tape, I know.

Also - is there a way to find the manufacture date by serial number?

Thanks for any info.

[westgate]

i don't have your answers, but i wish you good luck anyway.
your dragon will probably be ok. 'specially if seller values his rating. (a good rating, i hope)

[Scorpion8]

Also - is there a way to find the manufacture date by serial number?

The Naks use a production code on the rear, in circular format. It will have the year of manufacture (e.g. "87") in the center with the calendar quarter of manufacture (e.g. "7-8-9") across the top. It will also show the country of manufacture on back in the serial number box. Make sure you register your Nak on Naks.com.

[perry]

Read what I wrote to Speakerman1 about testing the NAAC in his post "Dragon" below this one. In addition to "check" if it was "overhauled" without getting too technical, all you have to do is take the top cover off, which is just a few screws, very easy and nothing will get messed up. Assuming it works fine, check the two easy to see belts . They are towards the front, near the center. The one next to the black box with NAAC written on it is (duh) the NAAC belt. Check to see how "floppy" it feels. It should be snug tight. Not rubber band tight, but not really easy to move. Same goes for the cam belt. Take a flashlight and look straight down between the capstans. The idler tyre is easy to see. The rubber should look matte with no checks, lines or cracks in it.
I got mine locally for a good price, because it had an "issue", which I knew was most likely very easy to fix, and it was, but, while it now works very well, it needs 3 new belts and the idler, which will take me 2-3 hours to do, and then I have to do an alignment and adjustment test, which is at least another hour or so.
Unlike the general "internet legends" regarding the Dragon, I don't see it as an overly complicated deck, not any more than any other TOTL Nak. Like any of them, there are parts that, if broken, are unobtianium and the Dragon has more of them than the others. But design, layout, mechanics, are pretty much like any classic mechanism Nak. Face it, if they were as finicky as some would have you believe, they wouldn't have the legendary performance they do, or be sought after.

From simply internet browsing, any serial number higher than, I think 22000, has all the updated circuit changes, and tends to be more reliable. It might be 24000, I can't be sure. The higher the better.

Scorp..I don't understand the quarter of production (7-8-9)???? EDIT..DUH..Never mind 7-8-9 ..3rd quarter months...gotcha!

[tcp100]

Great info. I didn't know about registering it on naks.com.

If it's something I'd want to keep for a long time (and I do) - how crazy is it to keep an eye out for a second, dead, parts deck to use for spare parts?

All that being said, what's a good price for a good-condition recently overhauled Dragon, and maybe also a dead parts machine?

Like I said, I believe I may have overpaid, although I'm trusting that the guy's honest about this being recently serviced.

This place is a wealth of knowledge.. Glad I found it!

[Scorpion8]

This place is a wealth of knowledge.. Glad I found it!

The users make it a great place. Share and contribute. And welcome!

[tcp100]

From simply internet browsing, any serial number higher than, I think 22000, has all the updated circuit changes, and tends to be more reliable. It might be 24000, I can't be sure. The higher the better.

Scorp..I don't understand the quarter of production (7-8-9)???? EDIT..DUH..Never mind 7-8-9 ..3rd quarter months...gotcha!


Well, I got it - and it seems to work OK. I still have doubts about how well it's been reconditioned - I've yet to open it (will this weekend.)

There is a label on the lip of the back cover for a repair company, but the label is torn so it's been opened since then - so somebody's been in there a couple of times, doing *something*.

I'm a little disappointed in the serial number; I think it was 06xxx, so looks like a very early Dragon. The date manufactured sticker is missing, another disappointment.

I tried a lot of recording this weekend, and at first had lots of trouble getting things calibrated.. At first I couldn't get the left channel level to hit the "CAL" mark no matter what I tried on the 400hz tone, but then I went over to the Bias side and the 15khz tone, fixed that, then came back to the 400hz, and was able to level them both.

I hadn't done the repeated back and forth procedure until ALL are equal though - I should try that. From that first point on, I just went from LEVEL (400hz) to BIAS (15khz) and stopped there, like it said in the manual - never back to LEVEL again.

I recorded some SACD sources on a new-stock TDK SA. Unfortunately I was short on time this weekend, so I could only play them back at length in my car's deck (probably a BAD representation, right?) I wasn't that impressed with the high end, but the low end was definitely powerful. (Again, it was a Type II and a middling one at that, and in a foreign deck, so.. might not be a test.)

The few things I was able to play back right on the deck itself sounded good but didn't blow me away (granted I've been listening to only SACD lately) - but I still don't think I have this calibration process down.

Looking inside the mechanism, there is a bit of shininess on the roller from the tape path, but definitely no cracks or scores. Capstans look fairly clean, but aren't shiny - say, like they are in my Sonys.

I'm sure it could stand for a good cleaning and demag; I'm just a little peeved that the condition wasn't as great as the seller described; but it SEEMS to be working well - I'm just no expert, so I'm not sure.

Even though I probably paid an extra $150 that I shouldn't for the "newly tuned up" deal, I'll probably keep it - (since I've been wanting one for 20 years.) It'd cost me that much to ship it back and then re-ship any other one I find on EBay, so just an EBay lesson learned, I guess.

I ordered a backup idler tire just in case; are the rollers unobtanium and hard to replace? What about sourcing the belts? I'd like to have a backup set on hand.

..Just wondering if I'm expecting too good a condition for a unit going on 30 years old??

Anyone know of anyone in my area (Richmond VA on the weekends, Northern VA during the week) that could possibly take a look and give some opinions?

[tcp100]

SN is 06262. Yuck.

My wife keeps telling me to stay off e-bay late at night.. :)

Any big problems with such a low SN?

[Nakdoc]

The top circuit board was heavily modified in the top right corner in early decks, so you will see 10 or 12 parts mounted on the foil side. As far as I know the later versions are the same electrically, and cleaner inside.
I believe the closest Nak servicers are in Boston or CT, or me in Nashville. The major check in my opinion is to evaluate the capstan belt. Play some solo piano and listen for flutter. If you hear it, then those Chicago guys used a 2nd rate belt, and an upgrade to Marrs Communications 8096D belt will be worthwhile performing (usually DIY).

[Skywavebe]

Hi TCP;
I was waiting to hear from the Nak Doc as he should know who the guys are that service these things. I have been in Chicago for about 53 years and this is the first time I have even heard them mentioned. Working in tape deck repair from many different companies, you would think they would have come up once in a while but never heard of them. I hope you get a good deck out of the deal.

[tcp100]

The top circuit board was heavily modified in the top right corner in early decks, so you will see 10 or 12 parts mounted on the foil side. As far as I know the later versions are the same electrically, and cleaner inside.
I believe the closest Nak servicers are in Boston or CT, or me in Nashville. The major check in my opinion is to evaluate the capstan belt. Play some solo piano and listen for flutter. If you hear it, then those Chicago guys used a 2nd rate belt, and an upgrade to Marrs Communications 8096D belt will be worthwhile performing (usually DIY).

Thanks. I actually had just ordered the Marrs belts, just to have on hand.

When you say "play some solo piano and listen for flutter".. Are you talking about wavering on the actual recording while playing back on the Nak? (Sorry for the naivete; just want to be clear on the procedure).

One other thing I noticed was that the pitch seemed slightly higher on a recording made on the Dragon vs the dvd-audio in my car, but I don't know anything about the quality of my car deck. Does the Dragon have a pitch adjustment?

I don't want to call this thing a dud yet as I still haven't gotten a hang on calibrating, but after a while I may consider sending it in for a once-over once I find the time and the wife forgives me. :)

I paid $900 shipped for the sucker (ok, now I admit it) hoping it'd be clean - so I'm hoping with a little DIY tinkering I should be in good shape. Feeling slightly ripped off, but maybe I'm exaggerating what's wrong with it (when it may just be user error and need of education).

[tcp100]

Hi TCP;
I was waiting to hear from the Nak Doc as he should know who the guys are that service these things. I have been in Chicago for about 53 years and this is the first time I have even heard them mentioned. Working in tape deck repair from many different companies, you would think they would have come up once in a while but never heard of them. I hope you get a good deck out of the deal.

Oh, the guys at Decibel Audio told me they thought it was serviced by Deltronics in Chicago - but unfortunately this was after the sale and they weren't able to provide me with any documentation. :( (www.deltronicschicago.com)

The reviews of Deltronics on Google aren't that great. :(

[iamhifi]

Let me give a piece of mind. Is there any trace of the sticker color, if gold which means overhaul, you are in luck, call ES Labs http://www.eslabs.com/ and give them the serial number they can tell you when it got ovehaul. When they overhaul a machine they update the deck to last revision and overhaul it. That said the serial number yield 1984, so what I have a review from Audio magazine that praise the machine and in 1984 people rave about the Dragon. Look at the machine how does it look, any dings, scratches, does the head look worn, you also want to get some head cleaner from US Recording http://usrecordingmedia-store.stores.yahoo.net/cleanwipandm.html (http://usrecordingmediastore.stores.yahoo.net/cleanwipandm.html) with this cleaner you can make the capstan shine and clean, clean the heads and the rollers with http://usrecordingmedia-store.stores.yahoo.net/larc5twopapi.html. And yest depending on the tape you need to go back and forth until you get right, also when they overhaul the machine they calibrate to a tape and the rule is that other tapes will sound good also. So maybe you wnat to record on a Maxell XL and see what happens.
Cheers,
Angel

[perry]

Well, as it turns out, I live in Richmond, near Grove and Malvern, so not this weekend (in-laws will be over), but after that I'd be glad to take a look at it and educate you as much as I know. I have a Leader audio analyzer, scope, and test tapes so we can check the wow & flutter, speed, response, etc. I'm still trying to get a T-100 because a distortion analyzer would be great to have.

Nakdoc must have been tired when he posted..it's a Dragon, no capstan belt, it's dual direct drive. There are belts for the cam mech, NAAC , and counter. The counter one is the only easy one to replace. I can check the belts and idler for you and verify what/if any work was done. I wouldn't worry too much about an early serial number, my older early number RX-505 has better W&F than my near last year one. The main reason, from what I've read on the various boards is Dragons can suffer from orange cap disease, the older, the more likely. While Tom has seen & worked on probably hundreds, I only have experience with 3 Naks, and knock on wood, haven't any orange cap issues yet.

New rollers have to be rebuilt from your old ones by Terry Witt, of Terry's Rollers, $35 each +$5 S&H. Nothing but high marks from everyone that has ever dealt with him.

Not to sugar coat it, but you did pay too much. I won't tell you what I paid for mine, but ironically, I drove to NoVa, not far from Kings Rd off the beltway to pick mine up from a private seller.

[tcp100]

While Tom has seen & worked on probably hundreds, I only have experience with 3 Naks, and knock on wood, haven't any orange cap issues yet.

New rollers have to be rebuilt from your old ones by Terry Witt, of Terry's Rollers, $35 each +$5 S&H. Nothing but high marks from everyone that has ever dealt with him.

Not to sugar coat it, but you did pay too much. I won't tell you what I paid for mine, but ironically, I drove to NoVa, not far from Kings Rd off the beltway to pick mine up from a private seller.

I'm sure I paid way too much; to be honest I just went on the ol' auction site and bought the one that at the time had the best description that wasn't totally stratospheric. There's still a guy on there asking $1499 for one of vague condition.

I'm not saying I'm made out of money or something, but I'd been looking for a while and I honestly got tired of searching around. Call it an impatience premium; although I did naively believe the guy when he said it was overhauled. Maybe it was - I'm not saying for sure on that yet. At least he packed it well and shipped it fast for free.

I'd probably be kicking myself if I honestly could get a good-shape Dragon for $500, but maybe I didn't know where to look. I'm learning. :( Sometimes that comes at a cost. I think I also had a couple three beers that night, and just said the heck with it and went and pulled the trigger *sigh*.

I'm actually closer out to the west side of things, in Chesterfield county. However I'd love to come by sometime maybe; you wouldn't have to drag your gear out here.

[perry]

Actually, he's talking about both. You can assess your decks audible W&F with a quality (like WIndham Hills or Nakamichi Reference recordings) pre-recorded tape, or record and playback a known piano piece from vinyl on a quality TT. Record and play will up to double your W&F, so if you hear no W&F comparing a recorded tape to the vinyl, then your deck is in fine shape. You should not hear any on a Dragon. Sustained notes on piano should be clear and waver free, with normal decay. If they waver, that's flutter. If they appear to frequently change pitch, that's wow.

Outside of a Nakamichi car deck, there is no car tape deck that has anywhere near the specs of a properly working Dragon.

[Nakdoc]

I was under duress (back pain). The Dragon is DD indeed. It can have W/F if the drive circuit has problems (fairly common).
I haven't worked on hundreds of dragons but I have a fair working knowledge of these decks. Jeff at ESL is the US expert. Whenever I see a Nak on eBay I assume it has service issues, and bid accordingly. A few reliable sellers exist, so hang around here and NakTalk and get to know some of the folks. They'll help you evaluate auctions. I don't think you paid too much necessarily, its just that your comments about dust and grime in vary basuc areas makes us think the service wasn't all it was advertised.

[tcp100]

Well, I haven't been too happy with the performance of my Dragon; so after some research here.. *EDIT*.. Decibel made it right.

I've been messing with the deck for the past few days, and I've yet to get any good high end response out of it, and have noticed some erratic flutter.

I wrote to Jeff at ESL, and he offered to take a look at my tape path if I sent him a photo of it.

His response?

"Hi Chris,
From what I can see, this machine is beat, worn-out and a mess. He lied!! RETURN IT!! "

So who knows if that's something I can even do. I've written them, but they don't seem to be too keen on returning phone calls and messages. Hoping they do the right thing, but I have a feeling this may be tough - so I just wanted to put out a warning first for folks here.

If it works out, I'll update on that.. I do take some of the blame for being naive and not knowing enough about these machines.

Image of the "worn-out mess" below. :P

[perry]

Worn out mess from just that photo? Are there others? Certainly the tape path was not overhauled, or even cleaned from what I see. The capstans shoul dnot have telltale stains on the tape path. It is little real effort to get them clean. Same goes for the pressure rollers. They may be shot but unless there is play in the bearing surface, they can be rebuilt. This is one of the reasons, I'm sure, that ESL only does complete overhauls. There is rarely just one or two things wrong, usually there are a bunch of unrelated ones (mostly due to age) and each has to be addressed. They can be picky about doing acomplete rebuild instead of just a fix, as they have plenty of business just doing that!! For what you paid, t is true that it was misrepresented, and I HOPE you paid for it with Paypal..misrepresentation is an easy thing to get your money back on with them. Here is my tape path before I cleaned it. Mine is a 1988, 3rd quarter build, serial 246xx something. Yours doesn't look that bad, so what else did you send Jeff?

[iamhifi]

Hello Chris,
Did you pay with PayPal, call them right away and tell them that this seller rip you off, that what he sold doesn't represent the item, that he lie. PayPal, tries to solve things and if in a week can’t resolved they will refund you and go after the seller. If you have $2500-$3000 to spare buy it direct from ES Labs, and you will not regret your decision, I did it and I am the happiest kid in a candy store.
Angel

[Fast Forward]

Oh, the guys at Decibel Audio told me they thought it was serviced by Deltronics in Chicago - but unfortunately this was after the sale and they weren't able to provide me with any documentation. :( (www.deltronicschicago.com)

The reviews of Deltronics on Google aren't that great. :(I had Deltronics in Chicago repair My Teac A-6300 and my Nakamichi 600 I never had any problems with them

[Nakdoc]

What Jeff sees is not stained capstans but worn capstans. The capstans should be uniform in finish and matte silver, not dark as in the photo. Also, the ridges visible on the pinch rollers indicate lots of wear. I would expect the play head to have a groove in it, and that may be why the treble is poor.
Sorry.

[BlazeES]

You have got to be kidding me...

Ridges in the pinch rollers? Lack of uniformity in the capstan shafts? You can see that detail in this attached photo?
LOL
Try saving that photo to your desktop and loading it into a quality picture program, you can't even zoom in close enough to see that stuff.

I laughed hard on this one.

Fridays require comedy and this post is filling the need on this momentus Friday the 13th!

ROFL

[perry]

Tom has more experience than any of us, and Jeff 10 times that, on repairing Naks. To them the discoloration I thought was stain may clearly be high mileage on the capstans, which if the heads are that worn from that mileage, then so are the motors, shaft bushings, etc, etc, so it would be a parts deck, best case.
Which would suck. I'd still try to gt my money back, but barring that, I'd like to see it and learn the signs. The ridges in the heads or flat spots, which are not visible in the reflections of the photo would be relatively easy to see in person.

[iamhifi]

keep in mind that this is a 1983-84 deck.
Angel

[tcp100]

I definitely paid with paypal, and a credit card behind that - so I hope I'm covered. (Although I'm not sure the folks at Paypal know the difference between a Dragon and a $139 ION USB tape deck :) )

What I'm trying to do now is to get the seller to refund me $300, and I can keep the deck and work on it. They finally called me back today, and they don't seem totally against the idea. I'll still give them a chance - they may just not know about these things. Apparently they sold it on consignment and took the word of the person who brought it in.

Your "before" looks a lot like mine, Perry - so that's encouraging.

That's all I sent Jeff, so I'm not sure what he saw that made him so colorful about my deck, but I'm sure his standards are exacting. I also spoke to CJ, and it's clear that they are absolute experts in this, and they did say that for $2500 they could get me a deck that was more or less immaculate.

I'd love to save up $2500 and get a freshly overhauled from ESL; but that's not in the cards right now (it may be in the future, but I need to really learn about this deck before I drop 2500 on another one. I've also dropped some change recently on my other expensive hobby lately - photography. I don't know why I can't pick up something cheap, like woodworking. But I think a lot of others here can sympathize. )

If I do get a partial refund, I think I'll be happy - as the deck DOES work and, as I talked to Terry from Terry's Rollers, those can be rebuilt.

With some recent Dragons going for 550-600 on EBay, do you folks think that could be a fair compromise price to work from, considering the ad WAS misleading.

I opened the deck later today and it looks like some, but not all caps were replaced. I'm not too worried about replacing caps; that's something I have done before (although granted not on the vintage of the Dragon.)

I'm guessing this deck is somewhere in between the seller's estimate ("newly overhauled", "top working condition") and Jeff's estimate of it being a "mess".

So, I have paypal, have NOT left feedback yet, and have a copy of the seller's ad saying "recently overhauled" and "top working condition" - so I think I have a leg to stand on.

[tcp100]

You have got to be kidding me...

Ridges in the pinch rollers? Lack of uniformity in the capstan shafts? You can see that detail in this attached photo?
LOL
Try saving that photo to your desktop and loading it into a quality picture program, you can't even zoom in close enough to see that stuff.

I laughed hard on this one.

ROFL

Blaze, I actually sent Jeff a 10mp photo. I resized it here so it wouldn't blow up the forums. The one I sent Jeff was 4416x3312.

[tcp100]

Here's the original photo I sent Jeff, cropped, now at 100% of the heads.

That's as close as I can get.

I don't actually see any ridges, but maybe I don't know what to look for. Is the discontinuity of the lines on the heads what you're talking about? If so, yeah, I see that.

Edit: Looks like the forum resizes things?

[iamhifi]

Yes the head looks a bit worned and the erase head is super worned. Take my advise if you paid through PayPal call them and demand your money back.
Angel

[tcp100]

Thanks Angel.

If they give me any trouble come Monday when they say they'd call me back, I'll go that route. Definitely.

If anyone's curious what it sounds like (or they're just bored); I've posted a sample here:

http://www.badpixels.com/tcp_dragon_test.flac

Source: Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms 25th Anniversary Ed. SACD (DSD 2ch)
Source Hardware: Denon 2930ci SACD, direct to the Dragon inputs
Tape: TDK MA-X 60
NR: None
Digital Recording Mode: 96khz 32-bit Float PCM
Output Format: 96khz 24-bit FLAC

..I know we're a bit anti-digital here, but both the source and the recording mode should at least beat the TDK MA-X.

..Song is an excerpt less than a minute (for copyright / fair use purposes).. Intro to "Walk of Life" - mainly because it's fairly dynamic, has some good highs and lows, and the organ can gauge any wow/flutter (although granted there's some wavering in the source, if you remember the song.)

It's actually doing better now than I was with it yesterday, but doesn't quite have the brightness of the source, IMHO.

Enough beating this though; thanks everyone for the advice. I think I know where I stand. Just putting this up there if anyone's a little curious.

[perry]

Those are great macros...and the heads don't look bad to me, unless that curved line on the PB head is a scratch, not a reflection. Have you done a good head clean with a quality cleaner? They are uber sensitive to build up, IMHO.

[Nakdoc]

Perry's comments are correct. When any experienced tech looks at photos they compare with their own "experiential database" from servicing new decks and 30 year old decks. Sorry that seems a bit hard to believe, but it is true. Jeff and I aren't playing games here.
I have yet to see a Dragon with worn heads, and these heads look ok.

[iamhifi]

I agree that is very hard to ware the head of a Nak. That said look at the erase head, still good but is the metal cap is worn, that tells you that the head has lots of miles, enough for me not to buy it.
Angel

[perry]

Angel,
The close up is of the playback and record head. The Ease head can't be seen. Are you referring to the record head? If so, the actual gap surface is not worn, but the surrounding substrate appears rough, or abraded. That is what the head normally looks like. Mine, with known low hours looks about the same.

[tcp100]

I agree that is very hard to ware the head of a Nak. That said look at the erase head, still good but is the metal cap is worn, that tells you that the head has lots of miles, enough for me not to buy it.
Angel

In the original pic, I don't think that's wear on the erase head that you can kind of see - there's some kind of contaminant on it. I haven't cleaned it yet, as it was supposed to be cleaned from the seller. :)

They're working on a resolution. I'm hopeful.

I thiak everyone for the advice, though. I learned more about this deck from here than scouring the internet when I should be asleep (like now.)

[perry]

Like I mentioned in the email, my B215 was "completely reworked and brought up to spec by the past head of Revox USA Service, the premier Revox Service facility in the US, and then boxed up and unused for the last few years". What that turned out to be was he replaced 4 caps, (and not the twin opposite PS cap that is very prone to failure) and one was a radial instead of an axial, so didn't fit right!. That was it! The pressure rollers have hard rubber, so the W&F was all over the place, (see my Revox post "B215 slows down"), the azimuth wasn't even close, and the clearly broken off dashpot was missing. I paid $345 shipped. But it DID work, so I knew it could only be SO bad. I bought new rollers and a dashpot ($85, ironically, from the same "premier Revox service facility"), and have recapped, and replaced the noisy cmos switches on the whole deck (maybe $25-30), did an alignment and knock on metal tape, it appears to be primo, with weighted W&F 0.028% and unweighted at around 0.05, and steady speed 0.1% fast. It works and sounds fabulous. But for a $450 deck (plus seriously 8+ hours of work and diagnostics,) it damn well should. And there is honestly, no easier deck to work on than a B215. (which is why I bought another totally DOA one, and have it working almost as well, now. Almost.)

My Dragon, which for all intents and purposes, was working just great, is in pieces on my bench right now, waiting for a decent idler tire to show up, so I can put it all back together, with all new belts, and align it as well. And as everyone has said, the Dragon is seriously not for the faint of heart to work on.

So don't be disheartened, most all can be made well, especially if decibel is going to work with you on it.

[Nakdoc]

Perry,
If you can find the replacement tire IT-6, you can mount it on a nail polish cap (perfect fit), cut it to proper width with a new xacto blade, and mount it on the Nak classic idler. This tire has the correct diameter! For those of you interested in a DIY job, changing a classic idler tire is quite difficult, and usually not needed. lately decks with noisy rewind or FF need new tires to silence the noise.

[perry]

Nakdoc, I do not know what an IT-6 replacemnt tire is!? Can you elaborate a little. I ordered tires from ESL, Marrs, and beltkits.com. Beltkits.com has good 10 page instructions for belt replacement, but a few ommissions need to be corrected (at least they did for my Dragon). His cam belts are too long for new (almost as long as a stretched Nak one), IMHO, but his counter belt and idler tire are best fit. His idler is exact OD, about 0.5 to 0.75 smaller ID and about 0.25mm smaller thickness. You would never think you can see 0.25mm thinner, but you can when mounted on the idler hub. There is a gap between the rubber and side wall on each side, less than the thickness of a piece of paper, but it is there. The OE is 3mm thick. Marrs and ESL are a full millimeter less od, and about 1.5mm less id, so even though the tire is the correct 3mm thickness, it is stretched so tight that it is no longer truely round. It also means that less than a mm of rubber clears the hub!! I could see a flat spot and no amount of moving the tire about could make it really round, it just moved the flat spot. My first tire from beltkits was defective, but he immediately sent me a good replacement. I used the cam belts from Marrs.
Idler tire replacement is not for the faint of heart on a Dragon. I SINCERELY wish I had heeded Nakdocs sage advice and did not change it "just because I was in there". The old tire had some mild checking on it, but was actually quite sound when I removed it. Unfortunately, I also snapped it apart when I removed it. It's all back together now, but I still have to route all the removed connectors and plug them in, and ty-rap it in place. On the Dragon, that is actually quite a chore!
Though the belts all felt quite loose and floppy to me (I mean, they ARE 21 years old!) they were all actually in great shape, very elastic, with no cracks. I could have easily left them in place, except for the counter belt, which was visibly sagging, and requires NO effort to change.

[Nakdoc]

Start with UED.com. The IT-6 is also known as a replacement tire for the Panasonic VXP0213 or RCA 144265 idler. The EV Game tire is 1428-25.
I agree with your observations about all the ill fitting tires for sale. An added complication is that the black idler hub (later classic mechs) can use the smaller OD tires. White hubs really need the proper OD. The IT-6 has only one fault, its width, but cutting it down is easy with a sharp blade.
I use the SBS5.1 for the azimuth belt ans SBM5.0 for the cam belt, by the way. L-14, L-18, L-15, and L-30 are exact matches for most nak lamps.

[perry]

Interesting that you use an SBS5.1 for the azimuth and an SBM5 for the cam, as that is what Fred also supplies in his Dragon kit. Both existing belts were the same, so I used the SBM on both. It works a bit quieter than the old belt, as you could see a little stretch/rebound with the old belt, and you actually can't tell that the new one is rotating unless you really stare at it. Of course, I also cleaned out the old grease and put in new PTFE grease on the axle ends, so that my have helped as well. I left the the dark gray grease on the worm gear, as it appeared to be something special and was quite clean and slippery. The new idler works perfect, quiet, fast, no slip, no wobble...phew!!!

Thanks for the site information!! I've bookmarked it. When you cut the IT-6 tire, you can't possibly get it totally square and even, can you? Do you sand it flat afterwards? I'd read that the white idler hub was the older style, but my Dragon is a 3rd quarter 88 build, and one RX-505 is a 2nd quarter 87 build and both have white hubs. Any later than that and you're talking Sankyo decks, aren't you?

Have you been using Terry Witt for pressure rollers? I just sent him 6, 4 from B215s and a pair from my RX-505 that has the "high" (0.08% weighted ) W&F, as nothing else seems to reduce it, though the rollers really appear to be new looking (but I know they are original, so 22 years old). The other RX-505, which is an 83 build, has consistant 0.03% weighted, 0.05% unweighted. New rollers for the B215dropped it from .09 to less than .03, as well as stabilized the speed tremendously.

[Skywavebe]

I am not an expert on Nakamichi decks, but if a seller represents the deck as just having gone through an overhaul, then there is no reason there should be any marks on the Pinch Rollers as they should be new- that in itself is clear that they have not told you the truth. Second, you should be able to put a tape in the deck and record a 1 KHz tone and get the same outs as input just as an indication that it was calibrated. If you get worse than that the deck was not calibrated which IS part of the overhaul process. I know because I have done at least a thousand cassette decks that would have to pass all these tests as well as others.
What is meant by their overhaul? You should get very good sound out of a properly working Nakamichi of that model range and clearly you are not.
Now we know why I have never heard of them in Chicago!

[iamhifi]

I look at both of my Dragons and the erase head looks like new and not worn like the picture and the play head looks perfect. 99 % of the time the Dragons you buy from EBay are not working as they should and give a bad rep to the Dragon. That said I look for a good donor and bough a Dragon on EBay from 1989 that look in great shape and sent it to ES Labs for an overhaul and is now calibrated to Maxell Vertex. I save and I didn't cut corners to avoid headaches. And not only that they sound awesome and when I record on my metal tapes or any other tape you bet on it they are hard to beat. I do have a good system that I can hear any nuance and criticize the sound of any deck, and I hear no Flaws with my Dragons, so a Dragon in top shape is second to none.
Angel

[tcp100]

Just wanted to update this little saga..

I'm keeping the dragon, and the seller, Decibel Audio, has made it right. They refunded me a significant portion of the price, and acknowledged that it wasn't up to spec and that they made a mistake.

They were decent to work with, and came to a resolution that made everything work out for me, in my opinion.

Thanks to the folks here at Tapeheads for giving me advice, and some good tips in PM (thanks Perry, Macster, Nakdoc) that should get this thing working.

(Perry, I still want to take you up on a little training on this thing some weekend!)

[perry]

Excellent! If it makes you and the wife happy, then it's a winner all around! PM me, and we'll try to set something up for a weekend that's good for us both.

[Styx_II]

Just wanted to update this little saga..

I'm keeping the dragon, and the seller, Decibel Audio, has made it right. They refunded me a significant portion of the price, and acknowledged that it wasn't up to spec and that they made a mistake.

They were decent to work with, and came to a resolution that made everything work out for me, in my opinion.

Thanks to the folks here at Tapeheads for giving me advice, and some good tips in PM (thanks Perry, Macster, Nakdoc) that should get this thing working.

(Perry, I still want to take you up on a little training on this thing some weekend!)


I'm glad things worked out.*thumbsup*