Should I Buy a New Turntable

[Fast Forward]

Ever since Broonsbane posted a pic Of his new Technics I,ve been thinking about updating my Turntable,,But do I really need to,,ok, its a Mid 70s model Technics SL 1700 I,ve had it since new,and it operates fine,I ve looked at the specs on the later Model Technics TTs and can,t really see much Improvement Ive, checked Rega,s ,Denon,s and even some Vintage Thorens and all seem to be in the same ballpark spec wise ,,maybe a better cartridge would offer a less expensive alternative I presently use a Shure M97XE,,but have heard great things about Grado Cartridges especielly Grado Golds,,give some thought and opinions ,,

[stuwee]

I vote for getting a new cart. You have a perfectly good TT right now, you can do better cart wise (be careful with Grado's they hum near the spindle on some TT's). I've had Grado's and love them (never hummed on my Thorens). You really can't improve the sound of your LP's by upgrading the TT, $ for $ like you can with a cart. unless you already had some sound issues (which doesn't sound like you have).

Can you listen to a Grado Gold with the Technics?

[Marek]

Good points.

The 1700 is a super table with a suspended sub chassis which even the 1200 doesn't have.

I really like the Grados also but they have a little hum on the 1600 family which might mean the 1700 has it also.

I vote for getting a new cart. You have a perfectly good TT right now, you can do better cart wise (be careful with Grado's they hum near the spindle on some TT's). I've had Grado's and love them (never hummed on my Thorens). You really can't improve the sound of your LP's by upgrading the TT, $ for $ like you can with a cart. unless you already had some sound issues (which doesn't sound like you have).

Can you listen to a Grado Gold with the Technics?

[Fast Forward]

I vote for getting a new cart. You have a perfectly good TT right now, you can do better cart wise (be careful with Grado's they hum near the spindle on some TT's). I've had Grado's and love them (never hummed on my Thorens). You really can't improve the sound of your LP's by upgrading the TT, $ for $ like you can with a cart. unless you already had some sound issues (which doesn't sound like you have).

Can you listen to a Grado Gold with the Technics?explain hum near the spindle

[Scorpion8]

explain hum near the spindle

Since the Technics is direct drive, the motors tend to be directly under the spindle. Motors emit a lot of RF due to all the current flowing thru them. RF induces hum into the sensitive magnetic coils of the pickup as it gets nearer to the spindle on the LP's inner grooves.

I'd also vote first for a pickup upgrade, perhaps a Denon MC pickup like the DL160. It's the cheapest path and you can always use the pickup on a 'table that you might upgrade to later also.

[gamve]

If you do experience hum induced by the DD motor, you can buy thin film Mu-metal (high nickel content). Cut a round from the foil and put it under your turntable mat. This was a fix I saw for the Kenwood LD07 and the Technics SP10 MKII. I have not tried this but if you have this problem it might be worth looking into
Cheers
G

Since the Technics is direct drive, the motors tend to be directly under the spindle. Motors emit a lot of RF due to all the current flowing thru them. RF induces hum into the sensitive magnetic coils of the pickup as it gets nearer to the spindle on the LP's inner grooves.

I'd also vote first for a pickup upgrade, perhaps a Denon MC pickup like the DL160. It's the cheapest path and you can always use the pickup on a 'table that you might upgrade to later also.

[niklasthedolphin]

I am sorry that I have to completely disagree with the so far stated suggestions.

My opinion about the Technics range of TT's is that the best of them are mediocre and as entry level non-complicated and reasonable.

Grado and Denon never managed to make any cartridges I found good.
Only if you are on a very restricted budget, Grado and Denon made entry level cartridges that were "good at the price".

You will not find any real good cartridge at prices less than ~ $350,-
From ~ $ 350 to ~$ 1.500 you will find a lot of difference in sound quality and characteristics.

I could come up with some specific recommendations of TT's, arms, cartridges and combinations of the three, but I would like to know your budget for this and I would like to know if you go for a new TT or if used is ok.

I will also tell you if your stated budget is ok for getting great sounding combos or if you are doomed to go the entry-level way.

Cartridge should NOT be bought used unless you are 100% confident with the seller about hour of (ab)use.

Specifications tell nothing whatsoever about how TT/arm/cartridge combo sounds.

"dolph"

[Naknut]

I would agree with dolph on this one at least to a point. Your budget would be my first consideration. If you have very little to spend I would just upgrade the cartridge as I believe just getting another turntable in the same league as the Technics is a linear move.
The best thing to do in MHO is to go to a audio store and listen for yourself. Try out some of the new turntables. Turntable technologies have come a long way since the Technics was new. Some of the better stores will let you bring in your current table and mount a cartridge so that you can hear the differences yourself.

[stuartypoorty]

If your budget limits you to entry level components then new turntables I'd recommend are Rega and Project (US distributor Sumiko) coupled with a high output MC such as a Dynavector 10X or an Ortofon Red/Blue/Black MM.

Project have a great range of tables whilst Rega have lesser numbers but the very well thought of RB250 tonearm.

Any dealer worth their salt should allow you to listen to the most basic table with differing cartridge options.

Dolph is absolutely correct about synergy, you can learn of the classic/optimum combos via the various analogue forums. Back this up with a few demonstrations.

Keep us informed as to how this goes.

[niklasthedolphin]

I would agree with dolph on this one at least to a point. Your budget would be my first consideration. If you have very little to spend I would just upgrade the cartridge as I believe just getting another turntable in the same league as the Technics is a linear move.
The best thing to do in MHO is to go to a audio store and listen for yourself. Try out some of the new turntables. Turntable technologies have come a long way since the Technics was new. Some of the better stores will let you bring in your current table and mount a cartridge so that you can hear the differences yourself.

Thank you mate.
;-)

I have to disagree with you, though, that Turntable Technologies have come a long way since...............

Arm and Cartridge technologies have come a long way, while Turntable technology unfortunately has not.

I believe that "around the corner" we will see a lot new in Turntable designs and technology.

To get anything new competing with the best of the old great TT designs, you will have to throw many 10's of thousands of $$ after it.
The thing is that the old great designed TT's comes rather cheap as used ones.

But don't expect a TT to be good just because it's old.

"dolph"

[stuwee]

Isn't this fun FF? You're just dragging a rock through a ditch and you want to hear some pretty music, simple enough....eh? Oy Vey....

[BroonsBane]

I guess all of my stuff sounds like crap since each component doesn't cost 10's of thousands of dollars. I'm glad I can now see the light *sarc*

FF, don't let anyone tell you you have to spend $$$ to get great sound. Audio snobbery is a very expensive attitude, especially when it comes to turntables. Maybe throw a DL-160 on your 1700 and see how it sounds. If you don't like it I'll buy the cartridge from you.
It doesn't matter a flying fuck what anyone else thinks about the sound, if YOU like it then nothing else really matters.

I really like my SL-1210M5G. It competes with tables I've had that cost 3 times as much. Not everyone will agree with me but I could care less. I know what I like and what sounds good to me. I'm the one that has to live with my audio choices every day and while I could have bigger better best I'm quite content with what I have. If you want to try a new table go for it but I think you'll have to spend a lot of money to get incremental increases in performance. It's all relative. I could be completely wrong but I think that a new cart will give you a renewed appreciation for the table you already have.

[niklasthedolphin]

Some people get very easily offended for no reason.

I'm trying to help the OP getting an upgrade in his sound, as he asked people to give some thought and opinions.

In that context it actually matters a flying **** what others opinions are and in particular those people who might have experience in matching cheap used gear to sound like 10's of thousands of $$$.

It doesn't change the fact that a good cartridge cost what it does.

If music and the reproduction of the music is not any priority, then why give a ****.................but on the other hand, what is the enthusiasm in this question, or in this hobby for that matter, then?

I am still waiting for Fast Forward to tell me if he is ok with used gear, if he has decided on a budget and if he wants concrete suggestions.

Suggestions like that might offend some people even more than they already are, but who gives a flying ****.
World is cruel.

"dolph"

[Scorpion8]

Some people get very easily offended for no reason.

Moderator input.

Yes, and we've had this dicussion before on watching our behavior. Let's all watch our language in these threads, please, since these are public-access. There's no need to repeat foul language for any purpose.

[niklasthedolphin]

Moderator input.

Yes, and we've had this dicussion before on watching our behavior. Let's all watch our language in these threads, please, since these are public-access. There's no need to repeat foul language for any purpose.

When you edit F*U*C*K out of my posts, then I suggest you do the same with the post from BroonsBane.
You make it look like you have a personal issue with me now.

You wouldn't want that, would you?

"dolph"

[Scorpion8]

When you edit F*U*C*K out of my posts, then I suggest you do the same with the post from BroonsBane.
You make it look like you have a personal issue with me now.

I specifically said "no need to repeat" foul language. If you're a bigger, better man then there's no need to repeat it, unless you lack the language capability to use more appropriate terms.

[niklasthedolphin]

I specifically said "no need to repeat" foul language. If you're a bigger, better man then there's no need to repeat it, unless you lack the language capability to use more appropriate terms.

I apologize my bad language.
Guess I have a day where people pushing me get's roughly finished off.
That include when I find discriminating behaviour.

Keep your good mood, though. You're not in my company, physically, today.
:-)

"dolph"

[Scorpion8]

Keep your good mood, though. You're not in my company, physically, today.

No, I'm always above it. But if this is a physical threat, then a banning is invited unless you can clarify.

[niklasthedolphin]

No, I'm always above it. But if this is a physical threat, then a banning is invited unless you can clarify.

What???

"dolph"

[Scorpion8]

Keep your good mood, though. You're not in my company, physically, today.

Please clarify. Perhaps we have a language issue here.

[niklasthedolphin]

Please clarify. Perhaps we have a language issue here.

Will you please PM me and explain yourself a little better.
What is that about threats?

You see ghosts, I think.

"dolph"

[imasoundhound]

if you are like me, sure, i'd love to go out and spend thousands of dollars for a new, high-tech table equipped with an arc of the covenant cartridge. unfortunately for me, and many audiophiles like me, the budget does not allow. i would suggest that, if your current table is working properly and you are happy with it, a new cartridge may make a significant improvement. i don't know what type of music you listen to, but i have heard some pretty good reviews of the AT440mla and the AT150mlx, particularly for rock and roll. one of these is the addition i am currently saving my pennies for. i use an mcs 6601 table. while i'm certain it will probably not out-perform a new thousand dollar table, i am completely satisfied with its performance.

[Rex Everything]

Keep your good mood, though. You're not in my company, physically, today.


This sounds very much like a physical threat. Sure sounds like you are saying if Scorpion8 had been in your presense you would physically confront him.


You better start pm'n a moderator and fast with what this is all about. You choose which one.

Any further replies before contacting a mod will be moderated.

Explain yourself via pm and fast Dolph.

[niklasthedolphin]

This sounds very much like a physical threat. Sure sounds like you are saying if Scorpion8 had been in your presense you would physically confront him.


You better start pm'n a moderator and fast with what this is all about. You choose which one.

Any further replies before contacting a mod will be moderated.

Explain yourself via pm and fast Dolph.

Holy s...

I didn't mean it that way.
I just meant it's good not to be my wife today.
Jesus.......................

I'm not violent.
I am resocializing people NOT to be violent.

I'm sorry for any misunderstanding here but it's not easy to be me with a moderator around that has a grouch on me.

Are you sure this Forum is so open minded after all?

"dolph"

[Scorpion8]

Are you sure this Forum is so open minded after all?

This forum is plenty open-minded, but what comes across "looking" like a blatant threat is going to be perceived that way, by several here in this case. Perhaps it is a problem of intent not traveling across wires as well as content (or text typing) does. As long as we're all agreed, we can continue the discussion of opinions of audio equipment, please.

[Fast Forward]

Can we please relax are egos a little bit ,,I value any and all opinions if I did,nt I wouldn,t post a question ,,especially a topic thats loaded like this one
#1,,, I can,t afford to spend thosands on a hobby,, I have a closet full of great guitars that was a result of another hobby I have
#2---I have no problem with used equipment except perhaps cartridges
#3-- my music runs the Gamut but I honestly save my TT for Classical Music because pristine Classical Vinyl is easier to find in 2nd hand stores
#4-- my equipment is vintage solid state as are my speakers
#5 --- I listen at low to moderate volume levels I prefer clean sound ,,I like the subtle sounds of music,,,I hope this helps clarify

[BroonsBane]

I think the easiest fastest upgrade is a cart. Slap it on your 1700 and see what you think. Nothing ventured nothing gained and it sure doesn't have to break the bank *thumbsup*

[Scorpion8]

Ditto to the previous post. The 1700 may not have been the TOTL 'table but it's certainly no slouch. Even a new good MM or HO-MC pickup can make a lot sound better very quickly.

[imasoundhound]

I think the easiest fastest upgrade is a cart. Slap it on your 1700 and see what you think. Nothing ventured nothing gained and it sure doesn't have to break the bank *thumbsup*

i concur. don't be afraid of used cartridges, just expect to have to replace the stylus. the bodies rarely go bad. the grado's are well regarded, though they are not my cup of tea (too mellow for my taste), and i've heard good things about the denon high output moving coils, though i've never auditioned one. keep us posted!

[Naknut]

There is a good article on the Technics 1200 in issue 18 of Tone Audio. Marc Phillips gives his take on this table and different cartridges he tried on it.
There is also a very good overview of current turntables in The Absolute Sound/ March 2009 issue. Everything from entry level to OMG pricing.

[Fast Forward]

called the Needle Doctor located in Minneapolis today ,,he told me that for the most part Grado,s and direct drive TT don,t get along to well,,and even sheilding the paltter will not eliminate all the hum,, you would think that as many Technics TT as ther are out there Grado would solve the problem if in fact one exists,any way he touted Ortofon as a his recomendation , I have the model # written down at work,,

[braxus]

Ortofons are good. I've heard them before. Just make sure your preamp is up to speed if you choose MC cartridges.

I've used Thorens tables for years and overall they work pretty well for the money. Linn is another good one. Rega has some newer designs that are good.

[Marek]

Just my $0.02.

I have grados and there is very little (ear next to speaker) hum on my quartz locked technics and jvc but there is barely audible (at high levels) hum on my "fg servo" technics.

I'm currently running a grado on technics and really like the sound compared to some other carts out there. They give me hours and hours of non fatiguing music.*Hi5*

called the Needle Doctor located in Minneapolis today ,,he told me that for the most part Grado,s and direct drive TT don,t get along to well,,and even sheilding the paltter will not eliminate all the hum,, you would think that as many Technics TT as ther are out there Grado would solve the problem if in fact one exists,any way he touted Ortofon as a his recomendation , I have the model # written down at work,,

[BroonsBane]

I've run a Grado RS-1 on an SL-1700 MKII with no issues at all, it was a nice combo.

[Scorpion8]

I'd also chime in and say I've used a Grado ZTE+1 (new equivalent is the Black) on a Technics SL-D2 w/ no hum issues. Not my preferred pickup, but it does a nice job.

[Fairchild]

A cartridge upgrade in my opinion will be the most bang for the buck, my favorite TT is a 1960 turntable, who needs new when you can have tried and true.

Years ago I ran a Ortofon Concorde 30 on a JVC quartz locked an was quite happy with it. On other tables I currently have a Grado Blue and a Grado Silver, both belt drives, these are also nice cartridges and Grado really does stand behind them, I had bought the Blue and when I recieved it, it was dead on one channel, after contacting Grado they not only replaced the Blue but sent a Silver along with it.

Being aPickering fan don't count them out, the XV-15 with a 750 and above stylus is great, and the 400 isn't bad at all, and if you can find one without selling the farm the XSV-3000 has some wonderful reviews. And the Stanton 881IIs is the same cartridge if you can find one of them.

http://www.epinions.com/content_4351959172

Good luck in your quest, the search is half of the fun.

Jim

[Fast Forward]

Looks like back to square one,,the right cartridge ,,probably going to stay with a MM ,moving coils seem a bit pricey for my budget,,This weekend I.ll hook up my other TT a Yammie direct drive,,and listen to some cartridges I allready Own ,,a Signet TK5E (original Cartridge that came with the TT) a Stanton D61 and The Shure M97XE,,I,ll record the same album using both TTs on 2 formats my R2R at 7-1/2 ips and On my teac C3 using both speeds and see whats what,,I,ll Then set a budget of about 200.00 retail and see what out there,thanks again for the info ,,and if you got a cartridge you like lets hear about it,,,FF

[BroonsBane]

I bought my Denon DL-160, a HIMC cart from The Needledoctor for $160. I haven't priced them lately.

[JXBJXB]

Looks like back to square one,,the right cartridge ,,probably going to stay with a MM ,moving coils seem a bit pricey for my budget,,This weekend I.ll hook up my other TT a Yammie direct drive,,and listen to some cartridges I allready Own ,,a Signet TK5E (original Cartridge that came with the TT) a Stanton D61 and The Shure M97XE,,I,ll record the same album using both TTs on 2 formats my R2R at 7-1/2 ips and On my teac C3 using both speeds and see whats what,,I,ll Then set a budget of about 200.00 retail and see what out there,thanks again for the info ,,and if you got a cartridge you like lets hear about it,,,FF

You already have an M97XE?

Some have enjoyed success in upgrading that cartridge by putting a better stylus into it.

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vinyl&m=816014

I personally own two JICO SAS styli - one for my Shure V15 IV and one for my Shure V15 III. I've been through Denon DL-103 and 110, AT-440, and a Grado Sonata, and I keep returning to the Shure/JICO combo.

[Marek]

One of the posters states:

You'll save a few bucks and find a pleasant surprise.
I put a JICO N97HE stylus on my own M97xe; it improved top end extension and detail retrieval without changing the smooth sonic characteristics of the cartridge. Tracing of the inner grooves was vastly better, too.
The JICO N97HE is about $60, and if you want to spend the money you can get an SAS stylus for the M97 also.
I'm not affiliated with JICO, but I've bought a few of their styli and they're excellent.

Does that mean a V15 stylus will fit the m97xe?

You already have an M97XE?

Some have enjoyed success in upgrading that cartridge by putting a better stylus into it.

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vinyl&m=816014

I personally own two JICO SAS styli - one for my Shure V15 IV and one for my Shure V15 III. I've been through Denon DL-103 and 110, AT-440, and a Grado Sonata, and I keep returning to the Shure/JICO combo.

[JXBJXB]

One of the posters states:

You'll save a few bucks and find a pleasant surprise.
I put a JICO N97HE stylus on my own M97xe; it improved top end extension and detail retrieval without changing the smooth sonic characteristics of the cartridge. Tracing of the inner grooves was vastly better, too.
The JICO N97HE is about $60, and if you want to spend the money you can get an SAS stylus for the M97 also.
I'm not affiliated with JICO, but I've bought a few of their styli and they're excellent.

Does that mean a V15 stylus will fit the m97xe?

Physically fit? Maybe. Real V15 styli of any sort are becoming as rare as hen's teeth. If you want a true V15 experience without spending a whole lot of money, you can find a V15 III or IV and get the JICO SAS appropriate stylus for them. They are fantastic.

If I owned an M97XE and wanted to get the best possible performance out of it, I'd buy this:

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=SHN097HESAS

And if I was starting fresh and wanted a great sounding cartridge for not a lot of money, I'd go find a Shure M91ED body, and buy this:

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=SHN091ESAS

[Marek]

Much thanks. *thumbsup*

That's what I was trying to get at, what's the best upgrade for the m97xe and would the aftermarket v15 III-IV styli fit, because I thought I heard someone got that retrofit to work.

Physically fit? Maybe. Real V15 styli of any sort are becoming as rare as hen's teeth. If you want a true V15 experience without spending a whole lot of money, you can find a V15 III or IV and get the JICO SAS appropriate stylus for them. They are fantastic.

If I owned an M97XE and wanted to get the best possible performance out of it, I'd buy this:

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=SHN097HESAS

[Fast Forward]

I thought about putting a new stylus on my Signet TK5E just for the hell of it put can,t seem to find and replacement ,,doing a stylus change on the M97XE also sounds like a possibilty