What's the best bang-for-the-buck R2R deck?

[JaeTee]

I currently have an Akai X-200D reel to reel deck that was basically given to me for free. It plays and records, but the recording function is a bit quirky. The two channels must be set at different level to record evenly, and it takes a lot of trial and error to get them to produce a relatively equal L & R recording. Frankly, the constant trial and error takes all the fun out of using it... Plus, once I do get the levels right, it has considerably more background hiss than my Nakamichi tape deck using even the worst tapes.

So...., I'm looking to replace it with a newer and better deck capable of using EE tapes. 7" or 10"

What do some of you think is the best bang-for-the-buck R2R's in the current marketplace? I'd like to spend between $300~$400.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

[Scorpion8]

What do some of you think is the best bang-for-the-buck R2R's in the current marketplace? I'd like to spend between $300~$400.

In this day and age I'm afraid, the best bang-for-the-buck r2r is any that you can get your hands on that works well, doesn't require repair, and doesn't cost more in shipping than the deck. Face it, they are a declining product with age, so if you can get one that works, the nearer the better. Since you specify EE tapes, you need one with the LN/WR option which most modern decks had. But there is such a wide field of Akais, Teacs, Sony's, Pioneers that if you could only get this one, no one would complain that you hadn't gotten that one.

Lots of people have had continuing success with Pioneer RT-707's. They are robust, and I could easily recommend one. I have an Akai GX-267D and Sony TC-440. All three of these decks have something for them and something against them. The Pioneers seem plentiful, and I even see them on my local CL.

But if someone offered up a Pioneer RT-909 or Teac A-4300 or Akai GX-255.... any one of them would make you happy if they worked properly.

[braxus]

Well personally I chose the Otari MX 5050 BIII deck. The BII and BIII decks are readily available used, and their price is quite inexpensive. Usually sell for between $200 and $500 dollars. Comes with 10.5" capability, switchable speeds, and if you get the BII- will come with the 4th head to play back 1/4 track tapes. But if you want to record 1/4 track instead of 1/2 track which the 5050 decks do, then look elsewhere. Also the Otari's don't use EE tape which you want. The Pioneer RT 707 and 909 decks are pretty good. The 909 isn't cheap these days, but you could easily pick up a 707 for $100-200 dollars.

[Des-Lab]

Scorp and Brax gave you some pretty sound advice. I would just like to add that EE ability should NOT be a prerequisite for your choice. Not unless you are sitting on a huge stack of EE tapes and need something to use them on. Remember that EE was introduced at the very tail end of the consumer reel to reel run and only a small handful of machines are so equipped to use it. Of course EE could be a roundabout way of saying you want a new[er] deck.

I believe that the ENTIRE list of EE decks is as follows:

Teac: X-3R*, X-7R*, X-300R*, X-700R*, X-1000R, X-2000R

Akai: GX-77*, GX-646, GX-747

*=7" reel size and smaller only.

So your choices are limited. It's important to keep in mind that while it's tempting to stick with a new deck, it's important to also consider the condition of it as well. Especially since the last known consumer deck, the X-2000R, has been out of production since 1994 or so. And now we are here in 2009. More to the point: You'd be better off with an older deck such as a Teac A3300-SX or Akai GX-620 that's been babied and well maintained and is in perfect working order as opposed to a 2001 Otari MX-5050 that has been ran into the ground.

But EE is not anything special as far as sonics go.

[braxus]

You'd be better off with an older deck such as a Teac A3300-SX or Akai GX-620 that's been babied and well maintained and is in perfect working order as opposed to a 2001 Otari MX-5050 that has been ran into the ground.

I can vouch for that first hand. My 5050 deck may be the current model, but its had hard use and as such Im now looking to get the heads I have replaced. Not fun when you really want to use a deck you just got.

[johncool]

You'd be better off with an older deck such as a Teac A3300-SX or Akai GX-620 that's been babied and well maintained and is in perfect working order as opposed to a 2001 Otari MX-5050 that has been ran into the ground.

You're right Des-Lab :) Other than the fact that I own an Akai GX-620DB that provides high quality recordings, I believe that these decks when properly maintained and cared of are still capable of great recordings. Plus the Teacs (the A series) are great workhorses with a great build quality.

[wollensak1580]

I agree with johncool the Teac "A Series" decks are awesome. I own a Teac A2300S and don't regret buying it. It's not mentioned or recommended as much as these other decks, but it certaintly holds up, and is in the same class as the other one's. The 3 motor, 3 head design makes the A2300S a classic. It's easy to work on and changing the belt is a breeze.
Good Luck !

[johncool]

Indeed. I also have a Teac A2300-SX which is the most reliable deck I have. Apart from the usual head and tape path cleaning, it's a joy to play with *reelspin*

[wollensak1580]

Indeed. I also have a Teac A2300-SX which is the most reliable deck I have. Apart from the usual head and tape path cleaning, it's a joy to play with *reelspin*


They are so nice to use during recordings ! The transport is so smooth on these decks. I Forget johncool what does the "SX" stand for ??

[johncool]

They are so nice to use during recordings ! The transport is so smooth on these decks. I Forget johncool what does the "SX" stand for ??

The only difference I get from yours is the tape/source switch for each channel and the different looks on the switches ;) Oh... and the VU's too

Other than that I believe they're identical in every other aspect. Technically they're the same.

[wollensak1580]

The only difference I get from yours is the tape/source switch for each channel and the different looks on the switches ;) Oh... and the VU's too

Other than that I believe they're identical in every other aspect. Technically they're the same.

Yes I believe you are correct here. The switches, and VU's are a lot different. I never noticed this before and I must have seen a dozen or so "SX" models on Ebay LOL. The little details one misses Ha !
Nice looking deck by the way !

[johncool]

Thanks! *Spin*

It's my little one. Although now I don't give it the proper attention as I do with my Akai. I guess it's that little wonder of using 10.5" reels :)

[wollensak1580]

Thanks! *Spin*

It's my little one. Although now I don't give it the proper attention as I do with my Akai. I guess it's that little wonder of using 10.5" reels :)


Your Akai is nice looking also. Give that Teac your attention LOL !!!

[JaeTee]

Thanks for all of the advice...

I did see a supposedly working Akai GX-77 on eBay last night with a bunch of tapes that had a $150 BIN and I almost pulled the trigger on it. But I wanted to see what kind of advice materialized here and after more consideration I started thinking it might be a better idea for me to hold out for a 10" capable unit like Revox A-77 or a larger Teac or Akai model. I will definitely keep an eye open for the Teac A-series, which many of you seem to hold in high regard.

But these devices are big, heavy and seemingly fragile so unless its absolutely necessary I really don't want to deal with having one shipped to me and the potential for damage. If I can pick one up locally I think I will have a better experience.

Since the X-200D I have now works okay, I think I owe it to myself to give it another shot. Patience will serve me well, I think.... So, after I get my Sansui AU-717 amp back from being overhauled I will try recording via a line-out from it rather than straight from my DJ mixer. The signal from my DJ mixer is pretty hot (Behringer DX-1000) so maybe using an amp line-out instead will help the recording sensitivity issue (although I doubt it, plus it adds circuitry stepping on the signal, which is never a good thing if it can be avoided). I'm also wondering how much using the 3 3/4 IPS speed contributed to my noise issue?

I will do some more critical tests with the faster speed and see what happens. I'll also do some more reading on this site and others.

Thanks again to you all....

[niklasthedolphin]

I currently have an Akai X-200D reel to reel deck that was basically given to me for free. It plays and records, but the recording function is a bit quirky. The two channels must be set at different level to record evenly, and it takes a lot of trial and error to get them to produce a relatively equal L & R recording. Frankly, the constant trial and error takes all the fun out of using it... Plus, once I do get the levels right, it has considerably more background hiss than my Nakamichi tape deck using even the worst tapes.

So...., I'm looking to replace it with a newer and better deck capable of using EE tapes. 7" or 10"

What do some of you think is the best bang-for-the-buck R2R's in the current marketplace? I'd like to spend between $300~$400.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

I think that if you are new to R2R you could benefit from someone familiar with the format to guide you in purchasing a machine.

I think that setting EE as a criteria is limiting extremely and will be like "shooting one's own foot off" in a marathon.

It would be a good guide for yourself to define what you want to achive with your next R2R.
Is it to get the best sound quality those bucks can buy when making own recordings, Will you only record from sources in your set-up or are you going to make recordings in the field, is to use it for your own rockband to make demo tapes on, Is for playing around with as many features as possible, is it for playing back pre-recorded tapes etc. etc.?

Do you have a lot of tapes already? What speed, track configuration are they?

Do you want a machine you can service? In that case you are limited to a few brands like Otari, Studer-Revox and those machines for which you can find donor machines for no-buck.

On the other hand, if you are open minded and (maybe get help to) find a good example with no service need, there are plentyful of great machines out there waiting for you at insane low prices.

"dolph"

[braxus]

If Otari isn't to your liking, the Revox decks are also good. We used the B77 deck in college and they worked well. They also are known for good sound quality. Just keep in mind what speed of Revox decks you want, as they have a low speed and high speed versions.

[Scorpion8]

And be aware (I think it's been said before) of low-priced Otari's. Many of those are used in radio stations, indicating their quality and ruggedness. But they get abused and moved off at "used equipment sales" from radio stations which can be a real crapshoot. Yes, they can be usually fixed back up, but if you wanted a deck that the first thing you had to do was fix, then....

I had a line on a low-buck Otari, lady said she never used it-was-moving-yada yada. But she also mention she'd used to work at a radio station and ..... I passed on that one, sight unseen. There are good stories out there too, and properly maintained they are great machines.

[JaeTee]

Hi Dolph,

Thanks for giving me some things to think about further... Here are my answers to some of your questions.

I think that setting EE as a criteria is limiting extremely and will be like "shooting one's own foot off" in a marathon.
Okay, based on the consistent responses about this, let's consider that requirement dropped.

Is it to get the best sound quality those bucks can buy when making own recordings
Yes, precisely. Sound quality is everything!

Will you only record from sources in your set-up or are you going to make recordings in the field, is to use it for your own rockband to make demo tapes on...
I am a DJ and want to record mix compilations from my own setup. No field recordings, no rock band demos. In many cases, I will be recording from vinyl. Once I get it into place, the deck will stay put.

Is for playing around with as many features as possible, is it for playing back pre-recorded tapes etc. etc.?
I'm not interested in big range of features. Reliable auto-reverse would be nice and convenient. What other features do you think are really worth having? Sound quality is paramount, feature set is not overly important. I will not be listening to prerecorded tapes. I never bought prerecorded cassettes either.

Do you have a lot of tapes already? What speed, track configuration are they?
I have about 15 tapes total, which I got from eBay after I got this deck. They are a mix of Ampex and Maxell and a few are even sealed. Several have music on them, but I intend to record over those if I haven't already... They are all 7" reels. And the handful of recordings I've made so far are all at 3 3/4 IPS speed with the track selector on "stereo."

Do you want a machine you can service? In that case you are limited to a few brands like Otari, Studer-Revox and those machines for which you can find donor machines for no-buck.
I'd prefer to get one that does not need service right away. And I have a very reliable service contact in Tampa who works on vintage gear in the event something goes wrong down the road. Willing to use something older if the sound quality is worth it.

Thanks again!

[niklasthedolphin]

Dear JaeTee......

You need to record on 7,5 ips equivalent to ~19 cm/s or higher if you have the sound quality in focus.
You should go for a 1/2-track machine with you requirements.

Skip the Auto reverse unless you are happy with the chance of more service.
Auto Reverse doesn't go with 1/2-track machines anyway.
Auto reverse is just a feature of convinience on 1/4-track R2R machines (and cassette decks) and has nothing to do with quality.

These conditions on a well alligned and "no-service-needed" machine will let you audition no difference from source to recording.
If you were to make your own master recordings as well, you would need to do 15 ips equivalent to ~38 cm/s.

Features to support best sound quality and stability could be:
*as many tape allignment options as possible
(at the best: Rec level and Eq are seperately adjustable and seperate for each channel, seperate for each speed seperate for PB and for Rec and Bias is adjustable seperate for each channel and seperate for each speed)
*modular build machines with insert cards
*quality tape transport
*good head specs
*HX-Pro
*Choise of IEC/NAB Eq
*Calibration in/out

For convenience I find, at least, these features great:
*real time counter with memory and optional speed read out
*tape dump function
*remote controle
*pitch control with speed read out

Maybe I forgot a few things.
All is out of my memory at this moment.
Anyway.....................
You can't have it all unless you aim high and are extremely patient.

Best of luck.

"dolph"

[JaeTee]

Thanks again for this useful information, Dolph...

I have a few quick newbie questions that will lift the rest of the fog:

1) What is the difference between "LN" (Low Noise?) and "EE" tapes?

2) What do the track designations mean? I'm referring to 1/2 vs. 2/4 track? My thought is that 1/2 track is standard mono/stereo, while 2/4 allows for multitrack recordings like you would do in a studio... Can someone confirm/clarify?

3) What does "tape clumping" mean?

Regards,

JT

[graffias79]

I think LN and EE are analogous to Type I and Type II cassettes. I am not 100% sure on this, but I think EE is chrome tape.

1/2 track tape records the left channel on half of the tape and the right channel on the other half of the tape. In this configuration there is no side B unless you like hearing your music backwards :)

Configuration:

channel 1 ------>
guard band
channel 2 ------>


1/4 track is stereo recording in both directions, so the track width is half that of 1/2 track.

Configuration:

<------------ side B
side A ------------->
<------------ side B
side A------------->


I have never heard of tape clumping.

I know somewhere on this forum is an image of the track formats, but I can't find the link now so I will repost the image.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c108/graffias79/trackformats.jpg

[DaveInVA]

Thanks for all of the advice...

I did see a supposedly working Akai GX-77 on eBay last night with a bunch of tapes that had a $150 BIN and I almost pulled the trigger on it...

Be careful with those GX-77 machines. They sound great BUT, they have problems. It was made with not quite the quality of earlier Akai's. They can have problems with the loading mechanism that can just be a belt problem or just as likely a broken plastic part thats unobtanium. They also have resisters in the reel drive circuits that tend to fail or change value causing slow or no rewind/FF. These are not rugged machines and are not made to be moved often...

Dave

[JaeTee]

Yea, I passed on that GX-77...

I'm starting to think I definitely want a 10" capable machine for the extended recording time at higher speeds. I'd really like to be able to do CD-length sessions at the 7.5 ips speed...

[iamhifi]

Dolph,
To me you just describe a Studer A810 and cost lots of $$$$.
Angel
Dear JaeTee......


Features to support best sound quality and stability could be:
*as many tape allignment options as possible
(at the best: Rec level and Eq are seperately adjustable and seperate for each channel, seperate for each speed seperate for PB and for Rec and Bias is adjustable seperate for each channel and seperate for each speed)
*modular build machines with insert cards
*quality tape transport
*good head specs
*HX-Pro
*Choise of IEC/NAB Eq
*Calibration in/out

For convenience I find, at least, these features great:
*real time counter with memory and optional speed read out
*tape cump function
*remote controle
*pitch control with speed read out

Maybe I forgot a few things.
All is out of my memory at this moment.
Anyway.....................
You can't have it all unless you aim high and are extremely patient.

Best of luck.

"dolph"

[niklasthedolphin]

Dolph,
To me you just describe a Studer A810 and cost lots of $$$$.
Angel

Well, the Studer A810 (and other Studers) would probably fullfill that wishlist but so would some other machines of which mine is one of them...............and that's not Studer.

I merely try to "frame" quality functions and features that making a machine a good one.
That could make it easier to search for a machine, trying to fulfil as many wishlist points as possible.

Getting this quality level doesn't have to cost $$$$ as you imply here.

"dolph"

[Eldorado]

I'm pretty new to reel to reel. I agree though with those who recommend the TEAC A series machines. Easy to find, inexpensive, endearingly ugly, built like tanks, and my A4300 sounds good to my ears.

From my experience with cassette, I expected hiss to be much more of an issue than it has been. But I find it barely audible through speakers and not bad through phones. I've also got a DBX 224x, and found the results of running my deck through this extremely impressive in terms of eliminating hiss. I've disconnected it again, as I'm running out of power sources and interconnects, but I want to get it up and running again when I've got some time to organize my system.

Few people seem to have a good word for 3.75 ips recording, but I've done a few that way and thought they sounded very good. I'm still in the experimentation stage with my decks, tapes, and recording methods, so I'm just tinkering around to see what I like and what I don't. But an obvious advantage of 3.75 is that you reduce tape cost if that's an issue (it is for me at the moment). It's also helpful if you need to cram more on the tape. At the price I've paid for tape so far, I wouldn't be able to watch it zipping past the heads at 15 ips with any great joy. Fortunately, none of my decks have that option anyway. 7.5 would probably do it for most people.

[Kent T]

Kent's take on this issue:

Decks I prefer to avoid:

Sony machines save for low hours top end models a la TC-850. Their older single motor machines with pressure pads especially so.
Teac X series machines unless very low hours. Capstan motors and motor switches are weak points and can be costly repairs. Record heads now no longer stocked by Teac. Flimsier build than their A series. Also avoid the Tascams built on the same transport.
Tandberg machines except for the 9100 and TD 20A line. All of the Tandberg decks are hard to obtain parts for if you live in the USA. Not too bad on parts if you live in Norway or Sweden.
Akai decks. The old X series and the 4000 DS and GX 4000 are single motor idler driven decks and those pot metal cams don't wear well. Their GX line except for the GX 77 are OK but electronic problems aren't unusual. And they're hard to work on.

Decks I really like:

Tascam BR 20. The last Tascam open reel is superb mechanically, has good long life amorphous heads. Reliable as a tank and easily maintained. Excellent sonics if you want a 1/2 track.

Otari MX 5050 B II. Still produced on special order. Very robust mechanically, nice sounding electronics. Easy to find spare parts for. Heads are long life. 1/2 track and has a 1/4 track play head. Easy to maintain and all critical adjustments easily accessed. Hard to kill. Many of them were used in studios. but check carefully and make sure heads are good and guides and rollers good.

ReVox A and B 77. Good sounding machines. Available easily used. Parts and service easily had. Brakes can be a weak point and those Frako electrolytics and Philips blue caps should be replaced if they haven't. Rock the reels before stopping it. Has true VU meters. Handles 10.5" reels. Available in 2 and 4 track stereo low and high speed models. The B 77 is a more refined, newer version and has logic control and a nicer transport.

A series Teac decks. Excellent rugged construction, battleship reliability, easy repairs and maintenance. I have seen even abused ones sound nice with little done to them. Heads can be shorter life than I like. Reasonably priced used, parts still available from Teac.

ReVox A 700. The A 77's bigger brother. Same applies to them. Better transport and nice tape handling. Superb sonics. Parts still available for them. 3 speeds, available 1/4 or 1/2 track.

Remember when shopping for a deck. Motors should run smoothly, heads should be in good condition. Both are the most expensive parts of your machine. Ask questions of the seller. Test the machine with tapes that are known good.

[Fast Forward]

Got to agree on The A series Teacs Like My A-6300
1 Affordable
2 Big reel capability
3 Auto Reverse
4 Vintage Good Looks
5 Built like F--- Tanks
6 They Sound great

[robert1946]

Got to agree on The A series Teacs Like My A-6300
1 Affordable
2 Big reel capability
3 Auto Reverse
4 Vintage Good Looks
5 Built like F--- Tanks
6 They Sound great

7. Parts are available,
8. Service Techs are Available

I Had 4 Teac 6300 best by far. Down to 3, one looking for a new home.

[TandbergRay]

Hi Eldorado,
Right now, I have 4 machines. All have been fully serviced to better than factory Specs. and I paid the necessary price to have this done. On 2 of the machines, it consisted of all new heads on each, Erase, Play, and Record heads, replaced with NOS Original Tandberg Heads. They were both Tandberg decks. One is a 1/4 track TD20A, the other is a 1/2 track TD20A-SE...my other 2 decks are the TEAC X2000R BL with DBX, and the AKAI GX-747 with DBX also a Black Unit. I have to tell you, I have been very pleased using the 3 3/4 ips speeds for most of my recording. I check it against the Source, and it is difficult to hear any difference, especially on my Tandberg Units. The Tandbergs seem to excell at the 3 3/4 ips speed, more than alot of other decks. I use the 7.5 ips for special recordings, just a mental thing really. I use the Quantegy 457, which I had the decks biased for, and I have plenty of, New Tape 457, so the recordings sound great. I save tape costs as you mention, and I couldn't be happier with the results. I once had a brand new TASCAM 32, which was a 2 track high speed mastering deck, 15 ips and 30 ips speeds. This machine killed me on Tape costs, and honestly, I didn't notice a great improvement as the 15 ips, forget about the 30 ips, Id never use that, too much for me. But, just as long as your decks are fully calibrated, etc....you can take advantage of the slower recording speeds, without a worry of sonic loss. Ray








I'm pretty new to reel to reel. I agree though with those who recommend the TEAC A series machines. Easy to find, inexpensive, endearingly ugly, built like tanks, and my A4300 sounds good to my ears.

From my experience with cassette, I expected hiss to be much more of an issue than it has been. But I find it barely audible through speakers and not bad through phones. I've also got a DBX 224x, and found the results of running my deck through this extremely impressive in terms of eliminating hiss. I've disconnected it again, as I'm running out of power sources and interconnects, but I want to get it up and running again when I've got some time to organize my system.

Few people seem to have a good word for 3.75 ips recording, but I've done a few that way and thought they sounded very good. I'm still in the experimentation stage with my decks, tapes, and recording methods, so I'm just tinkering around to see what I like and what I don't. But an obvious advantage of 3.75 is that you reduce tape cost if that's an issue (it is for me at the moment). It's also helpful if you need to cram more on the tape. At the price I've paid for tape so far, I wouldn't be able to watch it zipping past the heads at 15 ips with any great joy. Fortunately, none of my decks have that option anyway. 7.5 would probably do it for most people.

[Bob Boyer]

Just my .02 here... at the $300 - $400 price point the OP mentions, the Teac A series decks seem to be the standouts. For big reels, the 3300s, 4300s, and 6300s are great machines. I worked with a 3340 at an FM rock station years ago and found it to have good sound and a flexible feature set. While 3300s and 4300s don't have the syncing capacity of the 3340, it doesn't sound like you need it.

While the 3340 wasn't built to the standards of the Ampexes, Scullys, and ITCs of the day, it still held up well to a lot of use. Well maintained versions of the 3300 and 4300 should last for years and give you what you want.

Another deck I'm redeveloping an appreciation for at this price point (for one in excellent condition) is the RT 1011/1020/1050 Pioneer decks. Extremely good sound and a very high quality build. A little harder to find for some reason but worth seeking out. I'm absolutely amazed at the sound quality of my 1050 and it's bringing back great memories of the 1011 I owned before my ReVox. A friend once owned an RT 707 years ago and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend either the 700 or 900 series Pioneers based on his experience. The 700s especially, as there are still some good deals out there.

Good Revox A77s are getting harder to find at this price point, but if you can be ready to pull the trigger when you find one, they are great machines. I had one for 15 years and found it to be an excellent recorder. Wish I still had it. I doubt you'll find an A700 or B77 you'd want at your price point, but if you can stretch, I agree with others, they're also very good. I have a PR99 (the B77 pro version) at my office that I got from the campus radio station's surplus and it still works great after years of daily use and communications students learning on it.

Happy hunting.