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sheldance
11-05-2012, 07:51 PM
Boy have I got a topic to discuss!

Something hit me the other day. What if you were to use a Hi-Fi VHS deck for audio recording?? I don't know why I have not thought of this earlier! I took to the internet and found a few posts about it, but not as much as I was hoping for!

Just did some test recordings on an 80s JVC Hi-Fi VCR and it sounds phenomenal. PLUS, 2-10 hours of audio recording on one tape, without having to flip the tape!!!

Any thoughts on this? Or am I the only one excited by it? :p I mean come on - think of the MIXTAPES!

Lance Lawson
11-05-2012, 08:18 PM
Actually when HiFi Stereo VSH was current some manufacturers did in fact say that the unit could be used to record high quality audio specifically. My Mitisubishi is one of the makes that did suggest recording dedicated audio tapes. All Stereo HiFi decks can do this but some are easier to work with than others. Some decks require a video input in order to allow the Stereo record channels to operate. That said the results are outstanding and rival RTR deck performance. Before the advent of easy digital mastering many recording studios used HiFi VSH decks to track masters to. The audio on HiFi VHS is very similar to FM audio as the signal is converted to an FM signal that gets recorded onto the tape. I like the audio sound of HiFi VHS and bang for buck it can't be beat. Standard VHS tape works just fine and even in LP mode quality is very good. On standard speed it can be outstanding. The only drawback can be head switching noise on some machines. My better Sony and Mitsubishi are not offenders in this way.

ozoneeater
11-05-2012, 09:00 PM
There was a post just a week or so again on this same topic. My primary music recorder was VHS FI where 6 hours of uninterupted music can be recorded

http://www.tapeheads.net/showthread.php?t=21660

sheldance
11-05-2012, 09:49 PM
Well if anybody here is willing to do a VHS audio trade i'd be up for that. ~ *reelspin**reelspin*

absinthe_boy
11-06-2012, 12:48 AM
Some 20+ years ago I got a Mitsubishi HSM 54 machine which had manual recording level on the hi-fi tracks and I seem to recall the manual specifically mentioning using E180 tapes to record 3/6 hours of high quality audio.

Still got the machine but it's become *very* unreliable.

stripedcat99
11-06-2012, 09:29 PM
I have done this for years. I only wish that I had stocked up on more high quality VHS carts.... We had a top of the line Akai VS-603U (I think that was it) in the mid 80's. Expensive, but unbelievable quality of sound.

MRFLASHPORT
11-07-2012, 06:55 AM
VHS HiFi uses dBX NR and helical scan recording, so the FI is quite HI. Very little wow and flutter, and great dynamic range. I used to do this in place of a R2R in the 1990s.

Most HiFi VCR's need some kind of video signal present or they won't track properly. So I used to just feed the video from the Weather Channel on my audio only tapes.

I have a Panasonic Professional machine from about 1995 in my closet, havent used it in a while. Need to take it down. One nice thing about aside from the LED VU meters is it has switchable auto level control you can disable and adjust the audio record level manually. Most consumer HiFi decks lack this feature which is essential for music recording.

Velktron
11-07-2012, 08:14 AM
VHS HiFi uses dBX NR .

Is there some sort of reliable source for that? I found this mentioned again here (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?p=5836794#post5836794) but the guy was talking about a "dbx-like" system meant to counteract the effects of head switching, while someone else mentioned that some early Panasonic (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?p=5839775#post5839775) deck had an actual dbx logo at the back.

Is an actual dBX or a "dBX-like" system present de-facto in every HiFi VHS, or just some of them?

Ghitulescu
11-07-2012, 08:59 AM
indeed it has (http://www.oldvcr.tv/collection/images/206-NV-850Back.jpg)

sheldance
11-07-2012, 04:29 PM
I found some Scotch SuperVHS tapes at Good Will. Although the VCR im using isnt a SuperVHS unit, the tapes still sound extraordinary. Also helps that im using an 80s JVC VCR. I have never seen a VCR so solidly built, and HEAVY!

One question: I've cleaned all the moving parts inside the VCR, but am still getting some tape creasing. It doesn't seem to affect the audio, though. And I obviously dont care about the video. Should I be worried?

chan tran
11-07-2012, 04:55 PM
Well if anybody here is willing to do a VHS audio trade i'd be up for that. ~ *reelspin**reelspin*

One drawback of VHS HiFi is that it's not very compatible inter decks. Playing tape record from one machine on another may have mistracking.

sheldance
11-07-2012, 05:02 PM
One drawback of VHS HiFi is that it's not very compatible inter decks. Playing tape record from one machine on another may have mistracking.

Well, that stinks!

I am helping my friend record an album. Thinking of perhaps running the final tracks onto some VHS tape to see what kind of effect it will give it. I'm very curious of the outcome. Might as well give it a try! have a lot of free time on my hands...

stripedcat99
11-07-2012, 08:06 PM
It is NOT actual dbx, but rather another "compander" type system. The signal is then recorded via depth multiplexing, similar to broadcasting an FM signal to the tape.

The problems between different machines have cropped up for some people, but I never had it. I think it would work better if you stick with machines that were better suited in the first place for audio only- level controls, etc.

I never had to supply an actual video signal; I think the presence of a video input without any actual program tripped the machine into thinking it had a video input- the screen would just show black while playing an audio only tape....

GetReel
11-07-2012, 08:22 PM
I have heard of using the VCR many times over at another forum I frequent (Gearslutz). I actually used to work at Montgomery Wards..yea I know, in Electric Avenue so I've got a pretty high end Sony still from around 1999. Guess I'll keep it. My question is..Since Betamax was and is supposed to be superior to VHS, would Betamax be an even better option?

Time_Stand_Still
11-07-2012, 08:48 PM
I have heard of using the VCR many times over at another forum I frequent (Gearslutz). I actually used to work at Montgomery Wards..yea I know, in Electric Avenue so I've got a pretty high end Sony still from around 1999. Guess I'll keep it. My question is..Since Betamax was and is supposed to be superior to VHS, would Betamax be an even better option?


Not for audio recording. Both achieve essentially the same level of hifi sound recording.

For video playback Beta was said to be better than VHS, But once VHS added HQ to the picture side it was a wash. ED-Beta had a higher max resolution than S-VHS but it was slicing hairs. ED-Beta was also said to best S-VHS ever so slightly in Chroma. But most users probably would not notice.


As to tape quality. Better brands would have less drop out issues that could affect audio so stick with name brands. Also name brads would suffer less flaking off so plugged heads would be less an issue.

Velktron
11-08-2012, 12:09 AM
I never had to supply an actual video signal; I think the presence of a video input without any actual program tripped the machine into thinking it had a video input- the screen would just show black while playing an audio only tape....

Some VCRs tolerate missing sync pulses (either from the video source or from the tape's control track), others do not. I have an old Panasonic NV-G10EV (non-HiFi) that will suppress the audio track upon encountering a damaged control track, and will just play the tape at a steady "default speed" (around 60 fps, no matter what type of program is actually on it) until it regains control. If recording without a video source, it will record white noise w/o a control track.

A more recent (HiFi) Funai I have is much more picky, and will oscillate the tape's and DRUM's speed wildly upon encountering a problematic control track. But upon recording, it will generate a proper blank video signal WITH a control track.

stripedcat99
11-11-2012, 05:41 PM
The newest machine I use for VHS Hi-Fi sound recording is a TEAC from about 1990. It has excelleng VU meters, level controls, easy to understand speed, etc., controls. None of this using video menus to change settings, which is a royal pain (finding this more and more in A/V equip now such as disc players etc). I hope this deck doesnt die on me anytime soon, lol.

rene (NL)
11-12-2012, 01:11 AM
What about the switching effect? Many -if not all- suffer from this. You can hear the clicks clearly.

stripedcat99
11-12-2012, 02:07 PM
What about the switching effect? Many -if not all- suffer from this. You can hear the clicks clearly.

Never had that problem, and neither has a friend who also does this. We generally play back on the same machines that made the recording, but not always.

Where do you get the opinion that "many if not all" etc. ???

Ghitulescu
11-12-2012, 09:53 PM
Where do you get the opinion that "many if not all" etc. ???
Because it's a technically linked issue, it is there by design. That you don't hear it is maybe because it's below -70dB and few people can hear below -60 or -65dB.

leeoverstreet
11-12-2012, 11:33 PM
The switching noise can definitely be found here and there. I've barely heard it under normal listening circumstances on a machine playing back its own tapes, but I HAVE heard it when using my JVC HR-S9911U, or my JVC HR-S9500U, to play back tapes recorded in EP on an RCA machine from 1990.

In fact, I talked about it in another Tapeheads post regarding my VHS hifi audio archiving project, where I've now digitized 187 tapes containing old radio shows I did from 1994 - 2000 (later shows went directly to PC). Here is an example of FM radio hiss plus the whirring sound you get from head switching on VHS hifi, if things aren't aligned perfectly.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/55426555/tapeheads/hifi_switching_noise.wav

That was the newer JVC playing a tape from the older RCA, featuring a bit of FM dead air. Tapes played and recorded on the JVC seem to have only a faint version of that, much quieter than FM hiss, that can only be heard on recordings made straight from the control board (which generally sound AMAZING). Nowadays, a PC with a good sound card can do better, but back then, VHS hifi was the ONLY way to get an uninterrupted 3 hours of radio show recorded so well.

LAB3REVOX
11-13-2012, 03:10 PM
I had no idea. I have a JVC S VHS HR-S7000U that is in mint condition. My dad purchased it new back then and it has not been used few often over the years but it has Not just set without being played some. I have it now and hooked it up tp my HD AVR and my 55" flatt screen and recorded a HD movie on a sealed TDK VHS T-120 blank and the picture is Ok . I guess I need a better blank tape for recording muisc to it?? I hope it sound better then the picture looks... HD Bluray has spoiled me.

Dumpster Diver
11-13-2012, 03:21 PM
I heard Studios Often STILL use Beta tape for their Audio Track in Broadcast or Television, Or at least untill pretty Recently.

Myself, I have been told you can Buss Audio Tracks to VHS and Multi-channel a simultaneous overdub that way.

Never tried it, bTw...I never seen The specs of a VHS audo-track compared to a normal Cassette, Or the Tape speed, nothing, never, no..not me.

(but thats totally punk-rock Recording baby!)

(I still collect movies on VHS, But Ifn I hads me Druthers, Idruther use Beta Tape.)

I should look into it though Via The Audio in media Textbook and get back to you on it.

Linear
12-28-2012, 04:36 PM
Boy have I got a topic to discuss!

Something hit me the other day. What if you were to use a Hi-Fi VHS deck for audio recording?? I don't know why I have not thought of this earlier! I took to the internet and found a few posts about it, but not as much as I was hoping for!

Just did some test recordings on an 80s JVC Hi-Fi VCR and it sounds phenomenal. PLUS, 2-10 hours of audio recording on one tape, without having to flip the tape!!!

Any thoughts on this? Or am I the only one excited by it? :p I mean come on - think of the MIXTAPES!

I like the VHS format very much (it helps that I can fix them too) and some Panasonic models from the very early 1990's offered audio only LP mode. The VCR could not record a picture even if fed the signal, instead adding its own black screen and HiFi audio. The black screen is important because adding a picture can interfere with the sound (as the two signals are on the same bit of tape). Really, the VHS HiFi is underrated and it can sound better than proper audio decks however tape damage is an issue as a crease WILL cause a crackle or pop so new tapes, treated well are the way forwards. If you can get a HiFi tape formulation (double coated with lubricant) so much the better.

LAB3REVOX
12-28-2012, 06:20 PM
I like the VHS format very much (it helps that I can fix them too) and some Panasonic models from the very early 1990's offered audio only LP mode. The VCR could not record a picture even if fed the signal, instead adding its own black screen and HiFi audio. The black screen is important because adding a picture can interfere with the sound (as the two signals are on the same bit of tape). Really, the VHS HiFi is underrated and it can sound better than proper audio decks however tape damage is an issue as a crease WILL cause a crackle or pop so new tapes, treated well are the way forwards. If you can get a HiFi tape formulation (double coated with lubricant) so much the better.

I have a early 90's JVC 4 head Super VHS HR-S7000U we purchased new and has not been used a lot so I hooked it up and cleaned the heads and recorded a movie...so so video... HD Bluray Rocks. Do I hook up the SVHS like my R2R and record a CD or music from my TT to it that way? Right now I have it hooked to my HD AVR so it records movies.

allthingsanalogue
12-29-2012, 02:26 AM
My new toy!

Panasonic AG-7350.

Only 250 hours on the drum. And yes, it sounds superb on the 'hifi' channel audio.

Note the separate audio boards at the back and separate video boards to the right of the transport, all on pull out boards for easy servicing. The whole unit is direct drive with separate motors for take up and supply and all fully servo tensioned.

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff430/ibiza23/TH/DSC00659.jpg

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff430/ibiza23/TH/DSC00660.jpg

Ghitulescu
12-29-2012, 03:08 AM
Isn't it supposed to have a single motor for all functions, except loading/unloading the cassette?

Congrats, it's really a good recorder. You'd be amazed see how well does it track the older cassettes (should it be your first contact with the AG series) :)

allthingsanalogue
12-29-2012, 03:31 AM
Isn't it supposed to have a single motor for all functions, except loading/unloading the cassette?



This one definitely has two direct drive motors mounted on a separate PCB for the take up and supply.

Linear
12-29-2012, 04:45 AM
That looks a bit like a beefed up G-deck. I don't know why VHS audio does not get more respect as it offers index mark insert and delete to add new recordings, huge dynamic range, manual setting of levels and no worries over bias.

I do have a Beta HiFi machine but being in PAL land it uses the same depth multiplex system as VHS so sounds the same, however it does seem less troubled by tape issues causing crackles. NTSC Beta HiFi uses the same pair of heads as the picture and so the audio is not quite as good as the PAL version. It can suffer from buzzing from the adjacent TV tracks.

Velktron
12-29-2012, 07:20 AM
Hey, "Panasonic is best mechanics", you can't go wrong with that *grin*

allthingsanalogue
12-29-2012, 11:59 AM
What strikes me as how much better (2CH) hifi audio is on films on VHS compared to DVD. I'm not refering to multi channel audio but stereo!

Here is an example:

Film on VHS - Vol. on TV set to 18
Same film on DVD - Vol set to 40 - (hardly any more gain after that either)

Not only the volume difference but how much better voices are projected, it's mcuh easier to hear what the characters are saying. When I first got into DVD (well, never really got into it) I thought I must have been going deaf, volume twice as loud but still can't hear bugger all what they are saying (in 2ch mode) but now I'm watching VHS again it all becomes clear. Even though the picture is not upto much these days I find it much more enjoyable to watch a film on VHS than on digital media.

Years ago I'd watch a film untill I practically wore the tape out but now on DVD, watch it once, twice maybe and that's it.

Another note is that a lot of VHS programmes are better than the DVD later releases as many programmes are now edited for what should I say (politically correct) reasons while I can understand really does remove the humour, especially the later release of the BBC 'Only Fools & Horses'. While I can understand this, IMHO 'a joke is always at someones expense' wheather it's about age, race, etc, etc.

Sorry to go on!

Ghitulescu
12-29-2012, 12:36 PM
The higher the audio quality of both medium and player, the higher the dynamic of the sound. Any decent DVD player has a DRC function :)

Linear
12-29-2012, 01:23 PM
The higher the audio quality of both medium and player, the higher the dynamic of the sound. Any decent DVD player has a DRC function :)

The first button I pressed when I got into DVD in 2000. It still was not up to VHS audio clarity though - and no one has really explained why that is.

allthingsanalogue
12-29-2012, 01:55 PM
The first button I pressed when I got into DVD in 2000. It still was not up to VHS audio clarity though - and no one has really explained why that is.

I've tried everything, I've even ran the digital out into my TAG DAC20 and it made no difference.

http://www.iaguk.co.uk/tag/dac20large.jpg

Someone once told me that DVD audio is 1/5th the sound quality of cd.

Lance Lawson
12-29-2012, 02:12 PM
I have several audio HiFi VCRs. I am of the opinion that VHS HiFi and RTR are the best sonically. Had VHS been developed to also include dedicated audio decks that could be run like a standard cassette deck with real controls etc tape would have had a much longer mainstream impact. Unfortunately it seems the manufacturers never got beyond the audio video combined mindset for that technology.

Linear
12-29-2012, 03:26 PM
I have several audio HiFi VCRs. I am of the opinion that VHS HiFi and RTR are the best sonically. Had VHS been developed to also include dedicated audio decks that could be run like a standard cassette deck with real controls etc tape would have had a much longer mainstream impact. Unfortunately it seems the manufacturers never got beyond the audio video combined mindset for that technology.

Well the early HiFi machine manufacturers did push that at the start and in the broshure for my Sanyo VTC-M40 Beta machine (1984) it does mention audio only as a viable option. My Panasonic NV-F65 (1990) is a great audio only deck also however I think what killed it for many was the VCR's place under the telly and also that decks were often run into the ground and still expected to perform. I have seen some very sorry scenes and why people skipped maintainance on such expensive bits of kit I don't know. I have a NV-F65 linked soley for HiFi recording and use it to tape concerts and the top 40 rundown.

jan_stevns
12-29-2012, 04:19 PM
....Had VHS been developed to also include dedicated audio decks that could be run like a standard cassette deck with real controls etc tape would have had a much longer mainstream impact. Unfortunately it seems the manufacturers never got beyond the audio video combined mindset for that technology.

well - your wished came through once upon a time

Technics made the SV-P100 recorder
http://www.tapeheads.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=34334&stc=1&d=1356826651

Fantastic sound

Linear
12-29-2012, 04:35 PM
well - your wished came through once upon a time

Technics made the SV-P100 recorder
http://www.tapeheads.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=34334&stc=1&d=1356826651

Fantastic sound

I want one of those! I guess they are unobtainium...

cabincreek
12-29-2012, 08:07 PM
I've always used my JVC HR-D470u's for this trick. First started in early days of digital transfers when Smpte code was a problem, this just totally got away from this issue and was high quality PCM audio. The 96 dB dynamic range was a plus. The instructions in the manual for these decks said no video was required and that it was detrimental to the audio signal when using purely audio and not recording to the video hi-fi side. These worked great for ping ponging tracks. And no, I have NEVER heard any switching noise as mentioned above in tracks from these units, and yes, they are still in great shape today tho a little less for wear on the cases from being moved around so much. These were some serious VHS recorders with the dual azimuth 4 head system.

Ghitulescu
12-30-2012, 01:11 AM
Wow, this is the first deck I've seen (also in pictures) that uses the "carstereo cassette inserting style" :).

Warped Bezel
12-30-2012, 03:23 AM
well - your wished came through once upon a time

Technics made the SV-P100 recorder
http://www.tapeheads.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=34334&stc=1&d=1356826651

Fantastic sound

It is a prototype PCM DIGITAL recorder, a step above the PCM stereo encoders and decoders used in early consumer digital recording of the seventies.

Some public broacasters like WGBH actually TRANSMITTED these signals on their signals after normal television operations for recording (* WGBH has/had more than one station operating in a network so I am not sure if it was actually channel 2 with the broadcasts).

Warped Bezel
12-30-2012, 03:28 AM
Is there some sort of reliable source for that? I found this mentioned again here (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?p=5836794#post5836794) but the guy was talking about a "dbx-like" system meant to counteract the effects of head switching, while someone else mentioned that some early Panasonic (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?p=5839775#post5839775) deck had an actual dbx logo at the back.

Is an actual dBX or a "dBX-like" system present de-facto in every HiFi VHS, or just some of them?

AFM (HiFi) did NOT use DBX, it was employed in the MTS stereo audio broadcast by NTSC stations from about 1984 *first major usage during the Los Angeles Olympic Games IIRC and not quite the same version as on audio recordings as I seem to recall.

jan_stevns
12-30-2012, 03:35 AM
It is a prototype PCM DIGITAL recorder......

Nope - it was produced and sold to the public - a couple reached Denmark.

I saw, and heard one playing at the Danish agency for Panasonic/Technics - it was amazing, but bloody expensive (twice the price a revox PR99)

allthingsanalogue
12-30-2012, 05:49 AM
There some video and pictures here I found (not mine) but I wish!

http://s31.beta.photobucket.com/user/secretagentxxx/media/technics%20sv-p100/DSC07731.jpg.html#/user/secretagentxxx/media/technics%20sv-p100/MOV07729.mp4.html?&_suid=135687529621204259960604798387

jleon92f
12-30-2012, 05:55 AM
I made a few 6 hour dance music tapes for a wedding once. They enjoyed the music.

I used a JVC stereo VCR.

Thanks,
John.*reelspin*

cabincreek
12-30-2012, 11:57 AM
These were more of the professional line of JVC at the time and were geared toward more audio than video. Look at all the controls for audio level and track selection on the face of the deck, more like audio than video. As a great plus they also did real well at the video level with super vhs level of video in/out. The width of the deck is such that it is 3/4 the standard rack size. And the vhs tape was inserted longitudinally into the feed door. I've also seen Zenith units made by JVC that also load this way, but that is about it.

yinyangbt
12-31-2012, 02:40 AM
What about the Panasonic NV-FS100HQ ?

Linear
12-31-2012, 04:58 AM
What about the Panasonic NV-FS100HQ ?

Well its a good deck but nowadays they suffer with capcitor trouble in the S-VHS picture 'pack' which has many tiny components in. When they work they are very good with fine audio quality. These days I suggest the FS200 as they are one generation newer.

Dumpster Diver
12-31-2012, 05:04 AM
Suprised no one Brought up Betamax tape used up till very Recently still in many Recording studios and also Television Broadcasting, as a possible source for your Hi-fi Audio listening pleasure.

I would like to know how the audio track stands up to that of its VHS Rival Counterpart in terms of Durability, and Quality and Reliability.

I have been informed that Beta was Superior not only in Picture Quality, but also far surpased the Audio track of a VHS.

LAB3REVOX
12-31-2012, 06:36 AM
What about the Panasonic NV-FS100HQ ?

Or aJVC HR-S7000U 4 Head Stereo *hope* looking for the manual to see if I can hook it up like my R2R to record stereo on it.

Ghitulescu
12-31-2012, 07:00 AM
Suprised no one Brought up Betamax tape used up till very Recently still in many Recording studios and also Television Broadcasting, as a possible source for your Hi-fi Audio listening pleasure.
I believe you confound Betamax (which was a consumer format) with Betacam (which was the pro vesion).

Linear
12-31-2012, 07:30 AM
Suprised no one Brought up Betamax tape used up till very Recently still in many Recording studios and also Television Broadcasting, as a possible source for your Hi-fi Audio listening pleasure.

I would like to know how the audio track stands up to that of its VHS Rival Counterpart in terms of Durability, and Quality and Reliability.

I have been informed that Beta was Superior not only in Picture Quality, but also far surpased the Audio track of a VHS.

As I previously mentioned, Beta HiFi in PAL and NTSC machines is completely different - and sound different too.

Best (by a tiny whisker) - PAL Beta HiFi
Second Best - PAL or NTSC VHS HiFi
Third best - NTSC Beta HiFi

But now we have 30 years of machine use and wear so the outcome of one machine will differ to an identical model due to wear and component age.

lucky
12-31-2012, 10:39 AM
From this cool thread I digged out my old VHS tapes which I has recorded on a Panasonic NV65 HiFi. There are about 20x 4hour tapes still alive. But soundquality sucks for me today. My equipment 25 years ago was not the best compared to now.
It lacks the Bass and sounds weak and undynamic to me now. But maybe my Telefunken or Orion HiFi VHS Recorder can't play it back in its former quality? Better then my cheapo tapedeck that times sound it for shure.....*bigthumbup*

jan_stevns
12-31-2012, 11:33 AM
From this cool thread I digged out my old VHS tapes which I has recorded on a Panasonic NV65 HiFi. There are about 20x 4hour tapes still alive. But soundquality sucks for me today. My equipment 25 years ago was not the best compared to now.
It lacks the Bass and sounds weak and undynamic to me now. But maybe my Telefunken or Orion HiFi VHS Recorder can't play it back in its former quality? Better then my cheapo tapedeck that times sound it for shure.....*bigthumbup*

I recently went through the entire Startrek Voyager on VHS - with HiFi sound - nothing wrong there :) as having a deacent sound system attached, you may be surprised how explosions can shake the cofee table :)

(Not to mention occasional rumble)

allthingsanalogue
12-31-2012, 11:51 AM
Just now been watching Apollo 13 on VHS in HIFI stereo, when Apollo 13 took off i could hear it from upstairs, totally shook the house.

Totally blew the DVD soundtrack into space, VHS HiFi audio is king.

I've now started buying NOS sealed VHS tapes also.

Yes, Star Trek VHS audio rocks, try it with headphones, you will be amazed to the details you don't hear through speakers!!!!!

NOTE *Everyone, make sure they are playing the HiFi track and not the linear stereo track.*

Panasonic AG-7350!

8tracker
12-31-2012, 04:22 PM
Earlier this month I switched over vhs to record The Vinyl Cafe with Stuart McLean on Saturday Mornings.

Before the switch I was using a BSR X-10 Timer and a lamp module to switch on my Technics ST-S78 Digital Tuner and Pioneer CT-S88R with the timer switch set to record, this system worked but it had a few flaws to it. For starters I had to remember to put in a new tape every Friday afternoon as well as set the timer for ON at 9 AM and OFF at 10 AM which I often forgot to do *headache*. It also consumed a lot of tape; I started out using TDK-SA 90's originally but then switched to TDK D-90 after realizing that the Highs on FM-Stereo cut off at 15Khz and then finally switched to TDK D-60 to fill up the whole tape and to stop wasting the last 30 minutes on the D-90's. In addition to all this sometimes the X-10 timer didn't switch on the tuner on saturday morning and I'd miss a taping a show *bang*. After running out of TDK-D60's I figured there's got to be a better way.

Switching to Hi-Fi VHS solved all these problems and a lot more. Just like recording a TV show all I had to do was select a day and and set the duration to weekly, connect the tuner to the av inputs, and wait for Saturday. The sound quality is excellent and I only have to change the tape every 6 weeks when recording with EP :).

The VCR I use is a rarely used Zenith VRC-420 that I got for free with the remote from a family friend years ago. The heads are in good shape, the audio quality is spot on, and I'm not sure about the mechanics but they are definitely better than Phillips. The only thing it doesn't have is a counter *fit*.

Sorry for the long post I just really wanted to share this.

TerryLeBoombox
12-31-2012, 04:45 PM
I've now started buying NOS sealed VHS tapes also.



People are catching on! I'm always keeping an eye out for quality NOS VHS tapes.

Picked up a box full of sealed Sony V Premium last year, I am wondering what to record on them.

Linear
01-01-2013, 01:55 AM
People are catching on! I'm always keeping an eye out for quality NOS VHS tapes.

Picked up a box full of sealed Sony V Premium last year, I am wondering what to record on them.

Why there is not more interest in VHS HiFi recording I cannot fathom. The format has much going for it - perhaps more than Cassettes nowadays - and the machines are easier to use too.

Last night I recorded the Channel 4 House Party, a 6 hour non-stop set from 6 DJ's mixed with visual effects and their choice of music. I recorded that on VHS and it sounds great. As for tapes there is one that got a 10 out 0f 10 in the reviews and I agree. It is the 1990's JVC E180 PRO which is in a large library case. Where these stand out is the smooth running with zero drop outs and the picture is excellent too. These are not S-VHS and in fact most common S-VHS stock is quite poor with drop-outs and grainy picture. JVC and Maxell from the 2000's are the worst offenders. Panasonic S-VHS tapes from the 1990's are great though (but rare). I may do some photos later to show.

allthingsanalogue
01-01-2013, 03:45 AM
I recently picked up sealed, the following all for 99p each

Die Hard (1)
Titanic
The Hunt for the Red October
Braveheart
K-19

It really takes me back when I used to get VHS tapes for Christmas and the tape was in the box all wrapped in cellophane!

Dumpster Diver
01-01-2013, 05:03 AM
I believe you confound Betamax (which was a consumer format) with Betacam (which was the pro vesion).

I do not Confound anything. Just dont know anything. I am Only going on the information Given to myself from other people closer to my Generation (Mid 1980s)
Since The other point made is that Those units are Scarce and Rare, should also Further my point that Beta Tape is not Common Knowledge in this Day.

I , Myself Just wasnt around In PRE-Beta Time. Nor Do I personally know anyone who knows the Difference, between Betacam and Betamax etc Excepting of course a lucky Bunch of you.


but now I know, thank you for answering this off-topic Inquiry mid-Thread.

yinyangbt
01-01-2013, 07:41 AM
In the end , do you really think that the VHS HI-FI used for audio record/playback gives better results than the latest generation compact cassette decks with dbx enabled? (as Akai GX 75/95 for example) ?

Copyhat
01-01-2013, 08:09 AM
In the end , do you really think that the VHS HI-FI used for audio record/playback gives better results than the latest generation compact cassette decks with dbx enabled? (as Akai GX 75/95 for example) ?

VHS audio doesn't rely on companding to make noiseless recordings. At least 80 dB s/n ratio compared to 60 dB with a good chrome cassette with no noise reduction. Distortion figures are way better on VHS, too.

yinyangbt
01-01-2013, 08:58 AM
VHS audio doesn't rely on companding to make noiseless recordings. At least 80 dB s/n ratio compared to 60 dB with a good chrome cassette with no noise reduction. Distortion figures are way better on VHS, too.
do you mean a cassette deck with dbx is worst sounding than a VHS audio recording ?

Linear
01-01-2013, 11:28 AM
do you mean a cassette deck with dbx is worst sounding than a VHS audio recording ?

Well look at the audio head tape speed - over 200 IPS! The only reason it is not used in pro applications is:

Unable to splice in recordings
Tape damage results in noise
Compatability between machines

The third fact is caused by tiny changes in tape vs head drum angle and one gets a popping sound it it is wrong.

So to answer your question I would state that a Panasonic or JVC pro VCR will beat off other CC tape formats but cheaper VCR's have weaker (cheap)audio stages which colour the sound so not in that instance. As a format though it is very HiFi indeed.

Why don't you try it and see what you think? It needs to be heard.

allthingsanalogue
01-01-2013, 12:22 PM
Well look at the audio head tape speed - over 200 IPS! The only reason it is not used in pro applications is:

Unable to splice in recordings
Tape damage results in noise
Compatability between machines

The third fact is caused by tiny changes in tape vs head drum angle and one gets a popping sound it it is wrong.

So to answer your question I would state that a Panasonic or JVC pro VCR will beat off other CC tape formats but cheaper VCR's have weaker (cheap)audio stages which colour the sound so not in that instance. As a format though it is very HiFi indeed.

Why don't you try it and see what you think? It needs to be heard.

My recently purchased Pan AG-7350 (that I keep going on about!) also has dolby noise reduction and separate audio circuits.

Linear
01-01-2013, 02:52 PM
My recently purchased Pan AG-7350 (that I keep going on about!) also has dolby noise reduction and separate audio circuits.

The Dolby circuit is for the linear audio only. Dolby Stereo was the linear track standard, the HiFi will be unafected by the selection of Dolby. Look on the back of pre-recoded tapes and it will say 'HiFi' and 'Dolby Stereo on linear tracks' as two seperate things. The HiFi is already run through a compander network anyway to reduce noise. Only very few decks in the early 80's had the Dolby Stereo (linear) feature and most machines just played back the tracks mono and sans noise reduction (so a brighter treble).

As to the AG decks they are fine indeed and my AG 5260 has resin sealed components inside for stability. The HiFi sound is of course as good as can be hoped.

Velktron
01-01-2013, 03:10 PM
do you mean a cassette deck with dbx is worst sounding than a VHS audio recording ?

It's an entirely different kind of analog -almost digital in nature, I'd say. Unlike linear recording on a naturally noisy medium -where the noise affects mostly the amplitude-, the AFM encoding is virtually hiss-free, resulting in a very "digital", clean sound, provided it's used correctly.

It even shares some quirks in common with digital recording, as a byproduct of the use of AFM modulation. These include the presence of a "hard" clipping floor due to overmodulation -the AFM carrier can only be modulated within very fixed limits- and even digital sampling-like aliasing phenomena -again, the modulation can only change so rapidly-.

Unlike linear media (vinyl, r2r and cassette tape...), exceeding the medium's limits will result in noise and static distortion, rather than a pleasant saturation or a gentle rolloff.

No wonder they use special companders and filters to ensure that this doesn't happen.

Atun_playero
01-01-2013, 09:53 PM
I recently buyed a Sharp VCR model VC S101, does anyone knows how is its performance?

HarvestmanMan
07-18-2013, 10:09 PM
Just resurrecting this thread for the sake of a question...

On a MiniDV camcorder I used with RCA inputs, the camcorder would not let you record just audio. There had to be an audio AND video signal for recording to take place (if the RCA jacks were being used). Is this the case with VCRs as well, or do they accept an audio-only signal for recording?

Lowtone
07-18-2013, 11:56 PM
Is this the case with VCRs as well, or do they accept an audio-only signal for recording?

Some do, some don't, just try

pppooooi
07-19-2013, 12:56 AM
I recently buyed a Sharp VCR model VC S101, does anyone knows how is its performance?

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/images/smilies/ttiwwp.gif

Linear
07-31-2013, 02:39 AM
Honestly, the only fairly common deck (and reccomended) fairly freely available today that made a point of being also a standalone audio recorder is the Panasonic NV-F65. It has MPX and in LP mode the tape is also 'blacked' to give a stable playback but without picture interference. Bear in mind that was made around 1991 so will need new PSU capacitors and a clean at least.

All other decks will just be a guess as to whether they will work.

lucky
07-31-2013, 03:19 AM
fairly freely available today that made a point of being also a standalone audio recorder is the Panasonic NV-F65.

I owned one that days, but can't reach the quality of Dragon, Revox and Co....

Out of this times I own ~20 recorded 4hour (!) SP cassettes with music. But in my "survived" Telefunken and Orion VHS HiFi Reocorder its only good for background listening.

speaker dave
07-31-2013, 05:18 PM
I had an early Panasonic unit in the 80's. I found it marginal for audio as I wanted to record piano music and the head switching noise was frequenntly audible. Did they ever fix that issue?

David

Time_Stand_Still
07-31-2013, 05:21 PM
I had an early Panasonic unit in the 80's. I found it marginal for audio as I wanted to record piano music and the head switching noise was frequenntly audible. Did they ever fix that issue?

David

I hear no head switching noise on my JVC HR-S5500U S-VHS-HiFi machine. IMO it makes impeccable recordings. The Hitachi HiFi model added to my stable has yet to be tested in recording mode.

chan tran
07-31-2013, 05:29 PM
Just compare sound quality my NEC-DS8000U VCR beats my Nakamichi CR-7. But it doesn't play tape made from other VCR well. Stop/start creates noise. I have to be careful about the tracking. 2 hours tape rewind very slowly.

Time_Stand_Still
07-31-2013, 06:39 PM
Just compare sound quality my NEC-DS8000U VCR beats my Nakamichi CR-7. But it doesn't play tape made from other VCR well. Stop/start creates noise. I have to be careful about the tracking. 2 hours tape rewind very slowly.

FF/REW being slow is typical (compared to most cassette decks) of VHS vcr's.

Tape compatibility from deck to deck was an issue as well. The tracking sync seems to be the issue. I did a quick test of a VHS Hi-fi tape made on my JVC and played in the new Hitachi, in this case it did seem to be ok. I'll have to set up a more in depth and serious listening session later.

LeoB1955
08-01-2013, 05:58 AM
I had an early Panasonic unit in the 80's. I found it marginal for audio as I wanted to record piano music and the head switching noise was frequenntly audible. Did they ever fix that issue?

David

Hello David,

Yes they did.
In Panasonic's first Hi-FiVCRs, the FM audio recording system was operating at much lower FM deviations than the Standard stipulated. Panasonic engineers thought the maximun audio FM deviation should be limited to +/-50 kHz, while, the Standard allowed for a peak deviation of +/-150kHz.

If you recorded some sound at 0 to +6 VU levels with Akai, Hitachi, JVC or Sharp Hi-FiVCRs and played it back on Panasonic, the audio would come out heavily clipped (THD: 25 %). And vice-versa; if you recorded sound at around 0 VU level on a Panasonic VCR, it came out at too low level from those other machines. Consequently, the need to turn up the volume by 10-12 dB, made the head switchover noise more audible.

The next reason for incombatibility between Panasonic and others, was that Pana used a dBX-patented RMS level detection in their Hi-FiVCRs. JVC, however, quite rightly, didn't see the need for an RMS detector (or license fees).

The source of much of the confusion seems to have been the DM Standard document itself. For example, it stipulates the track width of rotary audio heads, and their relative position to video heads, in very loose terms.

The vagueness of that document can solicit incombatibility issues already at VCR head cylinder plants! The FM audio tracks, recorded on one VCR, may put them on the edge of the respective video track. When that tape is played back on another VCR, picture tracking adjusted to optimum, the FM audio heads of that cylinder may not fully coincide with those narrow FM audio tracks.

This symptom has in fact been reported by many people. They could adjust the tracking either for best picture, or clean FM audio, but not both at the same time.

LeoB

absinthe_boy
08-01-2013, 06:33 AM
I did do some audio recordings back in the day on my Mitsubishi HSM-54 (bought 1992, retired 1996).

The issue was that it did sound somewhat digital in nature but it was nevertheless a good way of recording long radio programs, or recording something that was broadcast while I was asleep or out. I used to feed it a "blue screen" video signal from another machine and the audio from "tape 2" of my receiver. Worked fine as long as I set the levels conservatively - sometimes a broadcast 3 hours after I went to sleep might be louder than when setting the levels using whatever was playing at 11pm.

But you know what I did with those VHS audios? Dubbed to cassette.

Ghitulescu
08-01-2013, 06:54 AM
I had an early Panasonic unit in the 80's. I found it marginal for audio as I wanted to record piano music and the head switching noise was frequenntly audible. Did they ever fix that issue?
Yes they did.
Head switching noise CANNOT be eliminated. By cleverly playing with the detection, this glitch can be lowered, that a good HiFi deck may show figures of -70dB, which is below the audibility limit of most mortals.

I hear no head switching noise on my JVC HR-S5500U S-VHS-HiFi machine. IMO it makes impeccable recordings. The Hitachi HiFi model added to my stable has yet to be tested in recording mode.

The source of much of the confusion seems to have been the DM Standard document itself. For example, it stipulates the track width of rotary audio heads, and their relative position to video heads, in very loose terms.

The vagueness of that document can solicit incompatibility issues already at VCR head cylinder plants! The FM audio tracks, recorded on one VCR, may put them on the edge of the respective video track. When that tape is played back on another VCR, picture tracking adjusted to optimum, the FM audio heads of that cylinder may not fully coincide with those narrow FM audio tracks.

This symptom has in fact been reported by many people. They could adjust the tracking either for best picture, or clean FM audio, but not both at the same time.
I noticed this issue as well, between my Thomson (recorder) and Panasonic (player). I had no problem however in setting the Panasonic to read the HiFi track (the video signal dropped by half) yet with no video issues.

Pacific Stereo
08-01-2013, 08:39 AM
The vagueness of that document can solicit incombatibility issues already at VCR head cylinder plants! The FM audio tracks, recorded on one VCR, may put them on the edge of the respective video track. When that tape is played back on another VCR, picture tracking adjusted to optimum, the FM audio heads of that cylinder may not fully coincide with those narrow FM audio tracks.

This symptom has in fact been reported by many people. They could adjust the tracking either for best picture, or clean FM audio, but not both at the same time.Bingo! This is the biggest issue when it comers to cross-compatibility between VHS HiFi machines, simple mistracking. Also a machine with an auto-tracking function will adjust for the best RF for the video heads, and the audio RF signal is totally ignored. On the same machine, this is never an issue. On a tape made on another, it is.

absinthe_boy
08-01-2013, 09:19 AM
I've owned HiFi NICAM enabled machines since 1992 and every one had/has some form of auto tracking. Fortunately all also had manual tracking because as Pacific says a tape recorded on one machine will tend to have difficulty on another. You "tune" the tracking for either picture or sound. With an acceptable picture, the hi-fi will go in and out of use as the machine loses the track and switches to linear.

At least there's no skew control these days.

Lance Lawson
08-01-2013, 09:41 AM
My main VHS Hi Fi decks are a pair of late model Sony's. They interchange perfectly and sound fantastic. My Mitsubishi deck does well too but is getting tired and cranky unfortunately.

absinthe_boy
08-01-2013, 01:05 PM
My last two VHS decks were both Panasonic models and even tapes made on one Panny don't always play on another. To be fair this was a problem with pre-recorded VHS cassettes too. I was a relatively early adopter of hi-fi and Dobly surround (1992 and 1994 respectively) and it was very difficult to get the hi-fi to track correctly and get pro-logic signals out properly on *any* VHS machine.

Laserdisc was a doddle of course.

LeoB1955
08-01-2013, 06:39 PM
Head switching noise CANNOT be eliminated.

Ghitu, you're screaming again.

In theory, the switching noise can be reduced to inaudibility - even eliminated altogether.

The very first idea of putting stereo audio signals on a VHS tape as two FM carriers, was published in 1982, by Hans-Juergen Kluth (US Patent 4,455,580).

It used the video head pair to record and play back the two FM audio carriers. Thus, no extra audio heads were needed, unlike in the DM system.

Kluth's system already had a clever circuitry that cancels the switchover noise. The circuitry was employed in the Video8/Hi8 format, which is why you don't hear switching noise in a Video8 camcorder audio signal.

Of course, you hear all kinds of noises and buzzes in camcorder audio, but they come from the machine's mechanism, mostly picked up by their own microphones.

Another method of removing the head switching noise from even the prerecorded Hi-FiVHS rental cassettes, was experimented by Panasonic circa 1994-5.

They digitized the relatively short switching periods of the l-r audio signals, at PB, and performed an advanced real-time interpolation on them. This practically reduced switching noise to inaudibility. Unfortunately, it was never commercialized. The Japanese obviously had arleady their mind on the D-VHS.

To give you an idea of signal frequency combatibility between some Hi-Fi-VHS machines of different brand, I'll attach a set of PB frequency responses from new models in about 1997. The sweep signal was recorded on the VCR 1 (top curve), and played back on 10 others.

LeoB

Ghitulescu
08-01-2013, 09:50 PM
It can be eliminated in theory but not in practice, because of mechanical constrains. We are living in an imperfect world, where the tracks are not straight, the speeds are not constant and so on.... One could store the whole track in memory, peform complicated alignements with the next track, including retiming the whole track, a sort of audio TBC, but this is difficult and audio doesn't even have the markers (synchs) a video has. By the time such an IC would have been launched on the market, and reached an acceptable price, the DVD already conquered the market and no investment was done into a dying technology.
The sound of V8/Hi8 is PCM, and PCM is easier to be realigned than pure analogue.

Lowtone
08-02-2013, 04:01 AM
The sound of V8/Hi8 is PCM, and PCM is easier to be realigned than pure analogue.

NO
my video8 is 100% analog, and most are.
PCM was for high end products only

LeoB1955
08-02-2013, 05:07 AM
The sound of V8/Hi8 is PCM, and PCM is easier to be realigned than pure analogue.

No no no, I am not talking about Sony’s audio-only digital PCM format using Video8 cassette. That's a whole different potato.

Video8/Hi8 consumer video format does not use the so-called linear audio track at all. The audio is recorded and played back via video heads as an analog FM carrier. Read my lips: Nothing digital there.

The virtues of FM recording, as opposed to ordinary ‘direct’ recording (hf-bias + superposed audio signal) are these:

1. Most of the PB signal modulation noise (level fluctuation) can be removed by limiter circuits.

2. There is no high-frequency tape saturation mechanism (you can get a flat 20-20kHz PB response even at 0 VU level). Hence, the PB frequency response and harmonic distortion are almost unaffected by tape biasing level at recording.

3. There is practically no w&f, since tape/head speed fluctuations (jitter) are converted into a low-frequency amplitude noise.

I forgot to mention earlier, that in mid- 1990s, a Japanese company came up with an evolution VHS/S-VHS PCM format.

It carried normal video signal, normal linear audio track, normal DM hifi stereo pair, plus a PCM audio carrier (2channel/16-bit/48kHz). All those could be recorded on the tape and played back simultaneously.

LeoB

botelhda
08-02-2013, 07:01 AM
:D

I can't remember the last time I used VHS, but when I did, it was to make recordings of audio albums, as they sounded great! Much closer to the real source compared to cassette.

I also made a few recordings using a sony PCM-601 (remember these?) and that was quite an eye opener. Poor man's dat machine, and you can record up to 6 hrs of digital quality audio.

It was very impressive tech back in the day, but trying to find a decent VCR to playback the tapes are another matter. I think that was really the only issue after 20 years, is trying to find a tape machine that will play the stuff. It would probably make sense in trying to "archive" any important recordings at this point, while working machines still exist.

On another note, I have at least 30+ sealed TDK VHS tapes, and some premium (in hard case) tapes...I can't seem to get rid of them locally, so if anyone is around the brampton, ontario area wants them, come and get them. :) It would break my heart to give them away to a goodwill, but I'd rather give them to someone who would actually use them for audio.

LeoB1955
08-02-2013, 08:00 AM
...and audio doesn't even have the markers (synchs) a video has.

But it does.
The video h sync pulses, laid along the video tracks at about 0,31 mm distance from each other, can easily be used for audio signal time-base corrections, if it were needed.

Since the relative speed between tape and heads is some 4,846 meters per second (PAL-SP VHS), there will be 15 625 of those pulses each second.

By the time such an IC would have been launched on the market, and reached an acceptable price, the DVD already conquered the market and no investment was done into a dying technology.

In the late 1990s, the VHS Hi-Fi audio circuitry got packaged into a single LSI, that contains all the needed REC/PB features and functions, even self-calibration. One of the most versatile VHS audio chips is the TDA9614/9615, featuring an enhanced head swichover noise reduction circuit.

Being, perhaps, a bit of an utopian, as you alluded, I am not concerned with someone else’s dwindling investment returns. I'd rather like to contemplate the technical aspects of existing systems, trying to improve their performance.

People often dismiss the use of Hi-FiVHS machines at sub-speed mode (LP), as compromise in terms of audio quality. For video, it sure is that since the video track width is halved at LP.
The audio track width, however, is not halved. Moreover, the relative head-tape speed is even slightly increased at LP, resulting higher signal to noise figure in the head preamp. The main advantage is, of course, two-fold recording capacity for a given tape.

It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong.

If that is the case, you must be in constant danger.

LeoB

Pacific Stereo
08-02-2013, 10:06 AM
Hmm. My EV-S700U records simultaneously in AFM and 12-bit nonlinear PCM. Or, it will record 6 2-track channels of PCM only, without video.

HarvestmanMan
08-02-2013, 10:23 AM
Out of sheer curiosity, is there an SVHS equivalent for Beta?

I've got a Sony Beta deck that is supposedly very good, and it's the only deck (VHS or Beta) I own with separate faders and VU meters for audio recording.

botelhda
08-02-2013, 11:45 AM
Out of sheer curiosity, is there an SVHS equivalent for Beta?

I've got a Sony Beta deck that is supposedly very good, and it's the only deck (VHS or Beta) I own with separate faders and VU meters for audio recording.

I think that betamax ED was a bit better than SVHS, but never really caught on...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betamax#New_standards:_SuperBetamax_and_Extended_D efinition_Betamax

LeoB1955
08-02-2013, 04:39 PM
I think that betamax ED was a bit better than SVHS, but never really caught on...

Super-Beta was the contender for SVHS (Super VHS). Image quality-wise, ED Beta was one step further, being based on metal particle tapes. All previous home video formats are based on oxide particle tapes.

Defiantly, JVC returned the ball to Sonyn's court once more, by introducing W-VHS to smother ED Beta into its crib. I think ED Beta was never actually sold outside Japan. Not in Europe anyways. Neither was W-VHS.

LeoB

braxus
08-02-2013, 04:52 PM
Not quite right. Super Beta came in around the mid 80s. Super VHS followed in late 1987. After that Sony countered with ED Beta. ED Beta only lasted a few years, and then was dropped. Reasons I heard was that ED Beta was eating into the Betacam SP market, so they were forced to kill ED Beta.

Time_Stand_Still
08-02-2013, 06:45 PM
Super-Beta was the contender for SVHS (Super VHS). Image quality-wise, ED Beta was one step further, being based on metal particle tapes. All previous home video formats are based on oxide particle tapes.

Defiantly, JVC returned the ball to Sonyn's court once more, by introducing W-VHS to smother ED Beta into its crib. I think ED Beta was never actually sold outside Japan. Not in Europe anyways. Neither was W-VHS.

LeoB

Super Beta was actually not a contender to S-VHS. It was an improvement over Beta but still lacked the resolution of S-VHS. Super Beta gave between 250-270 lines of horizontal resolution and did offer superior signal to noise ratio of luminance and chrominance over Beta and regular VHS. VHS with HQ was the VHS camps competitor to Super Beta. It fell short of horizontal resolution as compared to Super Beta but did near the luminance and chrominance of Super Beta. S-VHS held the resolution lead of over 400 lines and had superior luminance signal to noise ratio though it did have only a slight chrominance signal to noise ratio improvement. Sony followed up later with ED beta and that did exceed S-VHS horizontal though and had anywhere from 450 to 500 lines of such.

Pacific Stereo
08-02-2013, 07:50 PM
I've worked on a number of ED Beta machines, so my guess is that they were definitely sold for at least a short while in the US. And call me crazy, but I seem to recall the SL-HF900 was spec'd at 300 lines of horizontal resolution. But my memory is very fuzzy abut that, now.

Time_Stand_Still
08-02-2013, 10:55 PM
I've worked on a number of ED Beta machines, so my guess is that they were definitely sold for at least a short while in the US. And call me crazy, but I seem to recall the SL-HF900 was spec'd at 300 lines of horizontal resolution. But my memory is very fuzzy abut that, now.

Typically from all I recall reading back in the day.

VHS had about 240 lines
VHS HQ had the same basic lines about 240 but had detail enhancers for especially luminance.
Beta had about 240-250 lines
Super Beta generally noted about 270-280 lines and better luma and chroma details.
S-VHS had 400-410 lines.
ED Beta noted about 450 lines some claims up to 500 lines.

LeoB1955
08-03-2013, 03:47 AM
I seem to recall the SL-HF900 was spec'd at 300 lines of horizontal resolution. But my memory is very fuzzy abut that, now.

The SL-HF900 seems to be somewhat more advanced (jog wheel) VCR than the European (PAL) model SL-HF950, which I believe, was the ultimate Super Beta VCR in Europe.

Picture search tells me that the SL-HF750 may have been the HF950's opposite number among NTSC Beta machines.

Neither of those do not carry the Y/C component video connectors, which is vital for actually achieving over 300 lines of resolution on the TV screen.

The lack of PB image resolution may well have been caused by the absence of Y/C video output. Whenever the Y and C signals are combined into a composite one, as they must with composite-only output VCR, the image quality irreversibly degraded.

LeoB

LeoB1955
08-03-2013, 04:18 AM
Super Beta was actually not a contender to S-VHS. It was an improvement over Beta but still lacked the resolution of S-VHS. Super Beta gave between 250-270 lines of horizontal resolution and did offer superior signal to noise ratio of luminance and chrominance over Beta and regular VHS. VHS with HQ was the VHS camps competitor to Super Beta. It fell short of horizontal resolution as compared to Super Beta but did near the luminance and chrominance of Super Beta.

I stand corrected as far as that, but like to add that, the practical 'bottleneck' to image resolution in those days was the lack of a standardized Y/C video output.

S-VHS held the resolution lead of over 400 lines and had superior luminance signal to noise ratio though it did have only a slight chrominance signal to noise ratio improvement...

I was measuring VCRs for work in those days. The best unweighted luminance S/N readings of any VHS deck were around 51 to 53dB. But I never got more than about 47 to 48dB for any S-VHS machine.

Can you tell me how/why improved chroma S/N figures of S-VHS vs. VHS machines were achieved?

LeoB

LeoB1955
08-03-2013, 05:06 AM
Hmm. My EV-S700U records simultaneously in AFM and 12-bit nonlinear PCM. Or, it will record 6 2-track channels of PCM only, without video.

Sony called it Video 8 PCM. It carries 6 discrete audio channels, recorded in a serial time-multiplexed fashion along the slant tracks, which cannot contain simultaneous video signal. So, the Video 8 PCM is an audio-only format.

The PCM process begins with a nonlinear 10-bit quantization. The sample words are then reduced to 8 bits, allowing for a dynamic range of 88dB. The sampling frequency is about 31,5 kHz, allowing for an upper frequency limit of 15kHz.

At least in theoretical terms, Video 8 PCM's potential audio quality is not quite abreast with that of the CD Audio.

LeoB

active
08-03-2013, 05:35 AM
Had a Mitsubishi VCR with audio stereo mode, manual slider level and
VU meters model name HS-E52 in 1988.
It had best sound at LP due to some filtering that was only active during SP.
But it had problems with its tracking and lost tracking between songs.
Trying to retrack with digital tracking or manualtracking wasn't successful.

Pacific Stereo
08-03-2013, 08:31 AM
Several points:

Combining L and C does not mean one can't go beyond 260 lines of horizontal resolution. It only means certain artifacts that can arise as a result of the combination are not present.

The EV-S700U does indeed record two tracks of 12-bit PCM (band-limited to 16 kHz) along with standard video and AFM audio. It even has a function where you can record new PCM audio over the old while not touching video (and monitoring it at the same time), which is a feature I used quite a bit back in the day. I'll have to go dig out my manual and the "glossy" literature for the unit when I have some time.

I seem to recall standard VHS resolution sitting at around 230 lines, with the best machines topping out at 240. Ordinary Beta was clearly better than this, and I recall 250-260 lines being touted. I'm pretty sure I have a glossy for an SL-2700 in my notebook, and I'll look. And the more I think about this, I am nearly certain Sony claimed 300 lines of resolution for the 900. Again, the lit collection will verify what was claimed.

LeoB1955
08-03-2013, 12:44 PM
Several points:

Combining L and C does not mean one can't go beyond 260 lines of horizontal resolution. It only means certain artifacts that can arise as a result of the combination are not present.

Those artifacts come from the intermodulation products created by the jittery Y and C signals. Once combined, they give rise to a strong interference in both the Y and C part of the composite video signal.

The 260 luminance resolution represents a frequency of 3,25 MHz in the NTSC signal. An ordinary amount of VCR jitter can easily create random phase cancellations at that frequency (wavelenght), because the Y signal isn't electrically TBCd. Those cancellations (IM distortion peaks) will replace the original video signal (at that frequency) with alias signals.

The EV-S700U does indeed record two tracks of 12-bit PCM (band-limited to 16 kHz) along with standard video and AFM audio.

A quick run-by of the EV-S700U specs state the following: 'The Sony EV S700U serves as a video player, video recorder and audio-only recording deck capable of recording digital sound.'

Let's us review those specs once more. I just cannot see, where would the video signal be recorded, when the available track areas are used for a 6-channel PCM carrier? Unless, of course, a two-layer recording is used.

LeoB

PS. I've found it now, and you're right. An PCM audio carrier can be recorded at the beginning (30 degree wrap) of each track, while the video and FM audio carriers are recorded onto the rest of track lenghts (180 degree). The 6-channel PCM, recording, however, occupies all the track area. I've got it now, I think.

pppooooi
01-07-2014, 09:20 PM
I've always used my JVC HR-D470u's for this trick. First started in early days of digital transfers when Smpte code was a problem, this just totally got away from this issue and was high quality PCM audio. The 96 dB dynamic range was a plus. The instructions in the manual for these decks said no video was required and that it was detrimental to the audio signal when using purely audio and not recording to the video hi-fi side. These worked great for ping ponging tracks. And no, I have NEVER heard any switching noise as mentioned above in tracks from these units, and yes, they are still in great shape today tho a little less for wear on the cases from being moved around so much. These were some serious VHS recorders with the dual azimuth 4 head system.
Zenith VHS VCR Model VR 1830 (http://vintageelectronics.betamaxcollectors.com/zenithvhsvcrmodelvr1830.html)

PoTass
01-07-2014, 10:14 PM
Well this saved me the time if starting a new thread :)

kfbkfb
01-08-2014, 01:22 PM
Interesting aside about VHS audio:

In the late 1980s (it was mentioned in Video Review magazine),
Panasonic demonstrated a S-VHS prototype with linear audio,
VHS-HiFi *and* 2 channel PCM digital audio (the PCM audio did
not replace the video).

I never heard about any S-VHS VCRs with PCM audio (an additional
signal carried by the VHS-HiFi audio heads) being made.

Years ago, in the alt.video.dvd Usenet group, I suggested to a
Dolby Labs employee who posted there that this technique could
be used to add Dolby Digital/AC-3 to regular VHS-HiFi, but I wasn't
able to convince him that it was viable.

Kirk Bayne

SegaMDJ
01-13-2014, 03:20 PM
I used to record a lot of stuff on my hifi vcr back in the 90s, i could never afford a mini disc and a cd recorder back in those days with being a student, i did how ever put everything i had towards a high end Panasonic svhs deck as i new this would do a lot for me i only found out by accident that you could record music on it so you can imagine my joy when i could record cd quality music on there with no hiss so i did, i still have my deck to this day and works fine and in mint condition i don't use it now as i don't want ruin it because its something i worked hard for and tells a big part off my life in happy times, its the first peace of high end equipment i ever bought...lovely machine and lovely sound, the added headphone socket was great when i didn't have access to an amp

Odinolufsen
01-14-2014, 01:46 PM
The HiFi sound on a VHS deck was fantastic. I can't honestly remember, but signal to noise was in excess of 96dB at a 20 to 20khz on a FM carrier. It was no different for svhs as that was about picture, not audio.
Linear sound was only 46 dB.

Velktron
01-15-2014, 01:33 AM
I recall the specs of my Sharp 6-head VCR to mention something closer to 80 dB SNR. Better than 96 dB would be better than CD Audio :)

Time_Stand_Still
01-15-2014, 01:46 AM
I recall the specs of my Sharp 6-head VCR to mention something closer to 80 dB SNR. Better than 96 dB would be better than CD Audio :)

In the golden era of the hifi vcr most units had s/n ratios of 80+db and a dynamic range capability of 90+db. CD players have a dynamic range of 96db and most an s/n ratio of 90+db.

A vhs-hifi or beta-hifi recording made for all intents and purpose identical recordings of CD's and are great long play machines to record hours of virtually identical copies of vinyl LP's.

Velktron
01-15-2014, 01:59 AM
How can you have more dynamic range than SNR?

Ghitulescu
01-15-2014, 02:07 AM
How can you have more dynamic range than SNR?
The brain recognition system is quite good, one can follow a conversation even near a pickhammer or a jet engine :)
I am sure you'd make sense of this image, having a SNR way above the useful signal
https://sites.google.com/site/vasiletomoiaga/5.jpg

Time_Stand_Still
01-15-2014, 02:08 AM
How can you have more dynamic range than SNR?

S/N Ratio is the ratio of the loudest signal to the base background noise of the electronics. If the unit's preamp, amp sections contribute more noise than the format ie: Redbook CD has 96db by design. vhs-hifi will get to 90+ db based on 3% thd specs as typical, then dynamic rage can exceed SN/Ratio

Velktron
01-15-2014, 02:18 AM
N/M, brainfart *headache*

active
01-15-2014, 10:14 AM
So which VHS do sound good ?, I have a JVC HR-S-9700EU and had a Mitsu E-51 back in the 1980 , non of them are close to cassette in terms of musicality.

Odinolufsen
01-15-2014, 10:34 AM
Any VCR with HiFi on it should effectively sound good regardless of age. The thing is the characteristics of the cassette audio tape don't really exist on vcr. Say a metal with its punch and high lift. Or a chrome with treble and bass, or a normal with mediocre highs and good bass. Recording will be like for like. But... You can get some poor recorders though which can be a wee bit dull. I had a Phillips once I rented cheap, which was a SP LP proper VHS deck ( Panasonic G deck) and that was good at recording. The ones later, say 95 onwards were dumbed down spec wise, so audio only recording was removed. I swapped it out for Toshiba Hi|Fi model with a digital noise filter. Pic was great, audio so so. Am surprised if you JVC is poor. There was an editing feature which caused poor sound on later hifi machines with edit function. Music dubbed over a picture was recorded monaural on the long' track. This was because the Hifi recording was impossible due to the heads and erase etc.LP might cause it to sound poorer than SP. Just make sure if you are using it as a tapedeck, go through the sccart to get your audio and make sure the picture is a blank raster.

Odinolufsen
01-15-2014, 10:36 AM
A wee point to remember is poss head wear on an old vcr. If the pic has tadpoles coming off high luminance transistions, then there's a good chance the hifi heads have wear too.

absinthe_boy
01-15-2014, 01:14 PM
I've had a number of VHS hi-fi decks from Mitsubishi and Panasonic. I tended to use them for recording late night radio programs, or stuff during the day when I was out studying or working. I never had a cassette deck with a timer but of course the receiver could be left on and the VHS machine programmed to record audio.

But I never used VHS tape for long term archive/replay of music. I find that the machines are too fickle, even in SP mode. Something recorded on one will not always play on another. Something recorded 10 years ago might not play properly later. Given that I have cassettes well over 30 years old that I still enjoy, this is important to me.

But any VHS hi-fi machine, preferably with manual record level, will do a good job of recording audio. It just doesn't sound the same as cassette, due to the FM system I guess.

Linear stereo was pretty basic...frequency response around 80-12KHz, quite noisy. Low tape speed would be a big factor. You could get stereo sound from the linear VHS sound track, but it wasn't as good as even an entry level cassette deck. Some had Dolby NR which might have helped. Also remember VHS tape was not optimised for linear sound. The video signal is basically saturated, the tape isn't really music grade analogue audio tape. Hence the FM hi-fi system.

Linear
01-16-2014, 02:22 AM
HiFi sound characteristics are different between make and model of VCR.

I have worked in the video industry and most JVC models (even the top S-VHS decks) have a slightly wooden sound. The sound is clear but not open and bass is restricted. Panasonic have the edge and the NV-F70 had very secure and stable audio. The pro AG range too.

The NV-FS200 and NV-FS1000 were great sounding and the HS1000 would grace any setup.

Velktron
01-16-2014, 04:27 AM
AFM recording is an interesting "hybrid" system, that exhibits some characteristic of both pure analog and pure digital systems, although IMO it shares more in common with digital.

First off, the ability of the AFM tuner to detect and "lock" to frequency/phase variations is not "theoretically infinite" in either direction, unlike what is often claimed of pure analog linear audio.

With any FM system, there's a lowest possible frequency it can detect/follow, as well as a highest one, which de-facto puts a "hard floor" and a "hard ceiling" on sound levels that can be encoded without distortion, which is the reason why commercial FM broadcasting employs compression so liberally.

There's also a lowest threshold between detectable frequency differences, which leads to an effect similar to quantization. And finally, there's also a maximum limit on how rapidly the carrier's frequency can change (Any of this remind you of digital?)

For the record, VHS Hi-Fi employs two FM subcarriers at 1.3 and 1.7 MHz for the L and R channel (from this source (http://www.broadcaststore.com/pdf/model/793700/TT190%20-%204626.pdf)). This gives a maximum bandwitdh of 400 kHz for each channel (-/+ 200 kHz). To obtain a 20 kHz audio bandwidth, with a modulation index of 1, 40 kHz would be required, hence this limits the maximum usable modulation index to about 5 (which in turns limits the maximum achievable SNR).

In addition to all of the above characteristics, AFM audio on VCRs is also divided into "packets" as the head rotate, giving it elements of discrete timing, too.

IMO, whatever one wishes to call it, AFM is not a purely analog system, at least not like linear audio is. It definitively has elements of discrete-time, discrete-level signal processing.

Odinolufsen
01-16-2014, 07:13 AM
HiFi sound characteristics are different between make and model of VCR.

I have worked in the video industry and most JVC models (even the top S-VHS decks) have a slightly wooden sound. The sound is clear but not open and bass is restricted. Panasonic have the edge and the NV-F70 had very secure and stable audio. The pro AG range too.

The NV-FS200 and NV-FS1000 were great sounding and the HS1000 would grace any setup.

I will big up the purchase of a Panasonic too. Defo the best bitd.

Lapis
01-24-2014, 10:15 PM
Yeah, audio recordings on VHS tapes is equivalent to digital sound formats such as DAT, DCC and so on. They will be all lacking in analog tape sound, such as warm, fat, saturated. Once FM signal clips, DIGITAL DISTORTION!!*devil*

Nick Sunn
01-25-2014, 12:44 AM
I respectfully disagree with Lapis, VHS HiFi Stereo quality is closer to garbage than it is to DAT or MD. DAT and MD (Atrac I generation 4.0 or later) are both light years ahead of the best VHS HiFi Stereo!
VHS HiFi Stereo is not bad, it simply just doesn't come close to either DAT or MD as far as overall sound, freq range, s/n ratio, playability(trackability) on machines, even on the original machine that the tape was recorded on.
The VHS tape (the housing-shell design) wasn't as "stable" as the compact cassette shell had evolved to be by the seventies and eighties.
Those are simply my opinions. I'm not an expert and engineer.
I can tell you this though that once DAT was finally allowed to appear on the market, after years of RIAA and labels efforts to stop and compromise it, all interest in using VHS HiFi Stereo for recording audio effectively ended, except for low budget teen-aged kids/twenty somethings with garage bands that had not yet reached the club playing circuit.
For a brief moment VHS HiFi Stereo was possibly a superior alternative to cassette in overall sound quality, but it offered ZERO benefits other than increased time 120min ,before needing a tape flip because a dbx equipped cassette deck employing METAL tape was just about every bit as good as VHS HiFi Stereo was, even though you had to tape flip at 47min (C-90) or approx 50 (C-100) and depending on the brand and model of the dbx equipped cassette deck and if it was in proper operation specification, it would likely outperform most VHS HiFi Stereo vcr decks at audio recording.
VHS hi-fi stereo for audio recording is a waste of time in my opinion. Bulky VHS tapes and tracking issues, etc, not to mention the very old decks.
Really stupid way to go, with the ability to purchase a $50 PCM stereo solid-state recorder like TASCAM DR-05 or any of fifteen or twenty other models currently on the market.
Yeah, vintage VHS tape recording might be cool almost like using vintage 8-track tapes, or a junky old reel to reel that is way off spec and has speed and sound issues, simply to say, well hey, look at this: here is a VHS hifi stereo vcr recorder functioning for audio recording.
I'm simply stating that there are so many better solutions.
Had the VHS hifi stereo format evolved and improved over time as every format did REEL, CASSETTE,.... etc, there might be an argument for its merits, but I see none as the calendar reads 2014 and not 1984.
DAT, MD, hi-md, and PCM solid state stereo recorders are all light-years ahead of the best vHS hi-fi Stereo sound.
It didn't work all that great as a poor man's REEL alternative in 1985, so I don't think any improvements came along as the eighties ended or beyond.
Yeah, its inexpensive to find an old unwanted VHS hifi stereo deck and VHS tape still exists but that still doesn't change that it remains inferior to a number of things introduced since 1986.

Ghitulescu
01-25-2014, 05:41 AM
Yeah, audio recordings on VHS tapes is equivalent to digital sound formats such as DAT, DCC and so on. They will be all lacking in analog tape sound, such as warm, fat, saturated. Once FM signal clips, DIGITAL DISTORTION!!*devil*

I can't follow your logic, both the video and the HiFi sound are recorded beyond full saturation to insure no dropouts would occur. Are you referring by chance to modulation within the FM system?

active
01-25-2014, 06:55 AM
Extended play or Longplay or Shortplay .... does it matter for HiFi audio use.
I have been told that in SP there is a RF filter that kicks in and reduces the audio quality - anyone heard this too
I must agree that LP sound better than SP , EP I have not tried yet.

steerpike
01-25-2014, 08:07 AM
HiFi VHS was never designed as or intended to be top-quality audio recording system, and should not be expeced to behave as such.

It was a very clever and ingenious method of adding good quality and stereo sound to an almost-10-year-old home videotape format, which up until then, was on a par with a dictating machine in terms of fidelity.

The real engineering feat was being able to add good quality audio to an industry-standard format, retaining full compatibility both future and back. All onto a tape that most engineers at the time would have said was absolutely full and could not carry any more information.
Kind of like NTSC being able to add colour to the existing monochrome broadcasts without anyone needing to replace their old set.

The difference between a 'normal' video tape and a HiFi recording really is the same as the difference beween a shellac 78 record and a compact disc.
For achieving all that, Hi-fi VHS is a spectacular achievement.

Remember too that the first Hi-Fi Stereo video recorders cost significantly more than a typical reel-to-reel, so definatey were not a poor-man's substitute.

Lapis
01-25-2014, 03:54 PM
I can't follow your logic, both the video and the HiFi sound are recorded beyond full saturation to insure no dropouts would occur. Are you referring by chance to modulation within the FM system?

Yes, Precisely

Time_Stand_Still
01-25-2014, 05:07 PM
I can't follow your logic, both the video and the HiFi sound are recorded beyond full saturation to insure no dropouts would occur. Are you referring by chance to modulation within the FM system?

VHS Hi-Fi typically will not reach 3% THD until above 18db above 0db reference scale. If one is overloading a VHS- Hi-Fi tape past that then they are not utilizing the recording process properly. My JVC SVHS Hi-Fi deck makes in all intents of purpose identical recordings of music fed it notably vinyl LP's. I set the record level meter to only kiss +9db on it which is well below the typical 3% THD of VHS Hi-Fi recording.

As for speeds there is typically no difference in fidelity between SP or EP speeds. But some people note EP can reveal more tape drop outs at times if one use a lesser quality tape. But I've not had any real such issues on my tapes and machine.

The biggest draw back on VHS- Hi-Fi is possible deck to deck compatibility problems. But for me I only record tapes for my own use not to share.

If make recordings for others, most want a CDR copy or maybe a regular cassette tape copy.

active
01-26-2014, 01:23 AM
VHS Hi-Fi typically will not reach 3% THD until above 18db above 0db reference scale. If one is overloading a VHS- Hi-Fi tape past that then they are not utilizing the recording process properly. My JVC SVHS Hi-Fi deck makes in all intents of purpose identical recordings of music fed it notably vinyl LP's. I set the record level meter to only kiss +9db on it which is well below the typical 3% THD of VHS Hi-Fi recording.

As for speeds there is typically no difference in fidelity between SP or EP speeds. But some people note EP can reveal more tape drop outs at times if one use a lesser quality tape. But I've not had any real such issues on my tapes and machine.

The biggest draw back on VHS- Hi-Fi is possible deck to deck compatibility problems. But for me I only record tapes for my own use not to share.

If make recordings for others, most want a CDR copy or maybe a regular cassette tape copy.

Thanks for the level information , I shall try to increase my level about 6 dB.

LeoB1955
01-26-2014, 08:47 PM
VHS HiFi uses dBX NR and helical scan recording, so the FI is quite HI. Very little wow and flutter, and great dynamic range. I used to do this in place of a R2R in the 1990s.


The dbx company had (and only could have) patented the use of an RMS level detection circuit in their compander. RMS is needed to get stable level detection with regular tape formats such as CC where there's a fair amount of wow&flutter or time-base errors.

The W&F degrades the audio signal phase stability which in turn would confound the compander circuit - without the use of an RMS level-detection. HiFi VCRs, based on an FM audio recording, however, have some 50 to 100 times lower inherent W&F than any CC deck. Therefore, the mutual phase stability of the audio signal is very good as such, and no RMS detection is needed - to get stable level-detection in the compander circuit.

Nor is an RMS detector stipulated in the VHS HiFi Format Spec, called Depth-Multiplex recording. In the relevant paragraph of that spec, it clearly says 'Weighted Peak Detection' - not RMS!

The legend of 'dbx-type' compander in VHS HiFi VCRs must have started out from the earliestPanasonic models (circa 1984) that indeed had an RMS detector IC in their HiFi VCRs. The dbx license tag are indeed glued to the back panel of those models, too.

LeoB

LeoB1955
01-26-2014, 08:55 PM
I can't follow your logic, both the video and the HiFi sound are recorded beyond full saturation to insure no dropouts would occur.

This is patently incorrect explanation of the principles and merits of the FM recording system.

LeoB

LeoB1955
01-26-2014, 09:10 PM
How can you have more dynamic range than SNR?

Because the concept of dynamic range is derived from the ratio of the maximum level of some 5 to 12 dB 'headroom' (at somewhat increased THD) above the system's 0 VU/dB reference level and the background noise.

The S/N ratio, ordinarily, is the ratio between that 0 VU/dB level and the noise and so, must be somewhat lower than the dynamic range.

Those concepts can be and unfortunately are confused however, if the noise part in one ratio is weighted but not in the other.

LeoB

Ghitulescu
01-27-2014, 01:14 AM
This is patently incorrect explanation of the principles and merits of the FM recording system.

LeoB

In which way it is incorrect?

LeoB1955
01-27-2014, 07:10 AM
...As for speeds there is typically no difference in fidelity between SP or EP speeds. But some people note EP can reveal more tape drop outs at times if one use a lesser quality tape. But I've not had any real such issues on my tapes and machine.

In theory, the audio quality at sub speeds (LP, EP, ELP) should be slightly better than at standard speed (SP). This is because the AFM head-to-tape speed increases as the linear tape speed is reduced.

Since the FM audio track width remains the same at standard and sub-speeds, there is no that typical tape recorder low-speed compromise of halving the track widths (reducing the S/N by 3 dB).

In real life, the audio signal may have more of those occasional dropouts because the tape transport becomes more critical at LP.

...The biggest draw back on VHS- Hi-Fi is possible deck to deck compatibility problems. But for me I only record tapes for my own use not to share.

Tape-to-deck incompatibility may yet become an issue once your current HiFi VCR breaks down, or its heads wear off, forcing you to get a new machine.

LeoB

LeoB1955
01-27-2014, 07:54 AM
In which way it is incorrect?

The FM recording system should not be overdriven into tape/head saturation, because it creates aliasing/distortion which will manifest as reduced S/N at playback.

The main merits of FM tape recording are that almost all LF modulation noise, caused by less than ideal tape-head-contact, tape surface asperities and local inconsistencies of the magnetic layer, can be removed at playback by a simple amplitude limiter circuit.

The FM audio system is not at all critical to correct biasing, like in all the ordinary superpose recording systems, such as R2R and CC. In other words, all decent VHS tapes give you the same HiFi track frequency response, without having to fine-tune any bias potentiometers.

The FM REC/PB process effectively removes all the tape transport W&F (turning it into a very low-frequency hard-to-hear amplidude noise)

All in all, I'd say it is precisely these facts that have made posters even in this thread to liken the HiFi VCR audio to digital rather than analog recording system.


LeoB

Lowtone
01-27-2014, 08:53 AM
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/z/5w8AAMXQWzNSlNSr/$_57.JPG

i found this on eBay*devil*

VHS player and record, PAL, SÉCAM, NTSC, mono sound, line in, line out, antenna in, can recieve analog tv channels + have a LCD screen

50€*flame*

*Hi5*

Ghitulescu
01-27-2014, 09:09 AM
The FM recording system should not be overdriven into tape/head saturation, because it creates aliasing/distortion which will manifest as reduced S/N at playback.

The main merits of FM tape recording are that almost all LF modulation noise, caused by less than ideal tape-head-contact, tape surface asperities and local inconsistencies of the magnetic layer, can be removed at playback by a simple amplitude limiter circuit.

The FM audio system is not at all critical to correct biasing, like in all the ordinary superpose recording systems, such as R2R and CC. In other words, all decent VHS tapes give you the same HiFi track frequency response, without having to fine-tune any bias potentiometers.

The FM REC/PB process effectively removes all the tape transport W&F (turning it into a very low-frequency hard-to-hear amplitude noise)

All in all, I'd say it is precisely these facts that have made posters even in this thread to liken the HiFi VCR audio to digital rather than analog recording system.

Definitely a language barrier.
The FM signal is recorded at the highest level possible, and this means when the tape saturation starts to be noticed in analogue recording ("tape warmth"). This is to prevent dropouts. And this is more important as half of the audio FM signal is erased by the video one.

I am also not aware of any biasing in video technique, because it's not needed and a bias of at least 5x higher would be somehow problematic. Since the level is irrelevant in decoding the information, unlike analogue audio, the recording is done at saturation without bias.

active
01-27-2014, 01:28 PM
In theory, the audio quality at sub speeds (LP, EP, ELP) should be slightly better than at standard speed (SP). This is because the AFM head-to-tape speed increases as the linear tape speed is reduced.

Since the FM audio track width remains the same at standard and sub-speeds, there is no that typical tape recorder low-speed compromise of halving the track widths (reducing the S/N by 3 dB).

In real life, the audio signal may have more of those occasional dropouts because the tape transport becomes more critical at LP.



Tape-to-deck incompatibility may yet become an issue once your current HiFi VCR breaks down, or its heads wear off, forcing you to get a new machine.

LeoB

My ears agree with the theo, LP sound better than SP, when theory and practice match it is called a fact.

LeoB1955
01-27-2014, 03:47 PM
My ears agree with the theo, LP sound better than SP, when theory and practice match it is called a fact.

Congrats, your ears must pretty keen, since the rotary audio FM head-to-tape speed increases only by less than 1 percent from going VHS SP to VHS LP.

LeoB

PioneerNut
01-27-2014, 07:41 PM
I used to dabble around with VHS HiFi decks back in the day. At first I thought it was a great alternative to record music but I quickly noticed that the switching noise between heads was too intrusive for me for any critical listening. I did however find one cool use for it, and that was having my dad record music from a San Francisco jazz station back in the early 90's. He recorded at least 2 or 3 full 6 hour tapes late at night and ship them back to me in Illinois. It was my only way to get my Jazz fix while in college. It worked great, and quite frankly hearing ads for the Bay area while in Illinois always left passerby's in the dorm room a little dumbfounded as to how I could pick that up.

Pentium100
01-27-2014, 09:11 PM
One of the reasons I bought a studio grade VCR was the manual tracking option. That VCR can play any of my HiFi tapes properly (after adjusting the tracking).

steerpike
01-28-2014, 01:50 AM
One of the reasons I bought a studio grade VCR was the manual tracking option. That VCR can play any of my HiFi tapes properly (after adjusting the tracking).

All VHS vcrs have manual tracking. If the auto tracking fails, you can always revert to manual, although on some machines they obscured this function by not giving it a dedicated or obvious control.

However 'tracking' which simply adjusts the capstan phase, is not the only misalignment error that exists betwen two machines. Several other geometries concerning tape & head trajectories can be mismatched, and there is no user control to tweak those.

Velktron
01-28-2014, 04:19 AM
However 'tracking' which simply adjusts the capstan phase, is not the only misalignment error that exists betwen two machines. Several other geometries concerning tape & head trajectories can be mismatched, and there is no user control to tweak those.

Well, you can always keep the cover off and a set of screwdrivers in hand to fiddle with the tension posts and other tape path elements each time *footmouth* *flame*

active
01-28-2014, 02:01 PM
Did record about +8dB on my SVHS JVC HR-S9700 , much better sound now,
Thanks to Time_Stand_Still.
No distorsion at all @ +8 dB fantastic dynamic !
If there is one thing I trust it is my ears.

Pentium100
01-28-2014, 09:08 PM
All VHS vcrs have manual tracking. If the auto tracking fails, you can always revert to manual, although on some machines they obscured this function by not giving it a dedicated or obvious control.


Not all VCRs have it. My Siemens FM-739 does not have a tracking adjustment even inside. The service manual states that the tracking is purely automatic and searches for max video RF amplitude. It is possible to make the VCR restart the search but it is not possible to adjust the tracking manually (and from what I have seen, it also is not possible to make it search for max audio RF amplitude instead).

Linear
01-29-2014, 01:13 AM
Not all VCRs have it. My Siemens FM-739 does not have a tracking adjustment even inside. The service manual states that the tracking is purely automatic and searches for max video RF amplitude. It is possible to make the VCR restart the search but it is not possible to adjust the tracking manually (and from what I have seen, it also is not possible to make it search for max audio RF amplitude instead).

When buying AV equipment pre-internet era I used to always ask the sales assistant to get me the instruction manual to verify that important functions were present - even if buried in a menu. Manual tracking and manual record level HAD to be present. Like autofocus in a camera, it is a help sometimes but I do insist on a manual override for the times when the machine THINKS it knows better.