Hi performance power cables?

[xrayjames]

I don't want to open a can of worms, but are these hi-performance AC power cables necessary?

[braxus]

I don't want to open a can of worms, but are these hi-performance AC power cables necessary?

Some say yes. Frankly I don't know. The only thing I could see is the stock cable being thin wire which would restrict flow. But honestly a lot of stereo components today being sold come with thicker power cables. So I don't know how a better cable would improve anything. That said I have a Sony SACD player which uses a fairly decent cable and people have claimed upping it to an aftermarket one improves sound. I don't know if that is fluff or not.

[LesX55]

I think,well to a degree better cables work ( audio or mains ).
I use Isotek ( UK ) mains cable for all my higher end gear!! I feel they help lower noise pollution/RFI and in general lower the noise floor of the system.
I also use mains blocks that do the same and they are also surge protected

[LesX55]

James,
I shall get the tracking number too you if the tape does not arrive soon.

Les

[xrayjames]

James,
I shall get the tracking number too you if the tape does not arrive soon.

Les
No worries, Les. It is a holiday weekend here, so there's no delivery on Monday. I am sure it will be here soon.

[Rat44]

The biggest problem I see with the upgraded power cables is when they cost more than the unit they are connecting to the wall plug.
Some older units do use some pretty thin wire.
I use decent RCA cables but subscribe to the law of diminishing returns.
This subject does tend to polarize the audio crowd.

[Pentium100]

I don't want to open a can of worms, but are these hi-performance AC power cables necessary?

Of course they are - do you expect to power a 380V 100kW load with a 1mm^2 wire?Though if your device only uses something like 1kW (220V) then a thin wire might be OK, well, as long as it does not get very hot.


Oh, you mean AC power cables that supposedly improve the sound? As much as I doubt the effect of expensive signal cables, I doubt these even more. On te way from the generator to your device, the electricity passes trough several transformers and very likely tens if not hundreds of kilometers of wire (some of which may be underground, some above ground and some in the walls of your house). Unless you change the entire wire, I doubt that you will achieve a measurable effect, well, if the cable is thick enough to not melt the insulation when you turn on the device.

[ke4mcl]

i generally have little faith in any of the power cable hype. i'm no engineer so i'll take the word of what i consider to be a company founded on strong engineering practices, McIntosh. whatever mac uses for speaker and power cable is good enough for me.

[Ricardus]

The Triplex from the pole to your house is aluminum wire, the entrance cable on your electrical entrance is aluminum wire. Why thinking that adding 3 ft of over-priced copper wire right before your device is going to help, is beyond me.

Once you've satisfied the maximum potential current draw of your device with proper gauge wire, your job is done.

[Ricardus]

Regarding what McIntosh does. They might give you an impressive looking cable, just because they make beautiful products, and wouldn't want to harm their image by supplying a crappy looking power cable. Doesn't mean you need one.

Having said that, I have no idea what they provide.

[Pentium100]

The Triplex from the pole to your house is aluminum wire, the entrance cable on your electrical entrance is aluminum wire.

It's copper for me at least all the way from the electricity meter outside to the outlets. I suspect that it's copper to the electricity meter too. Anyway, as long as the wire doesn't get too hot, you're OK.

[cristo]

Something tells me that somewhere there's an audiophile tweeker who will put
an expensive power cord on his 40 watt soldering iron. *wink*

[Ricardus]

It's copper for me at least all the way from the electricity meter outside to the outlets. I suspect that it's copper to the electricity meter too. Anyway, as long as the wire doesn't get too hot, you're OK.

Sure, your HOUSE is wired with copper. They outlawed aluminum wire in the entire house decades ago. But unless your electrical service is 50 years old, the wire from the pole to the meter is aluminum.

[Pentium100]

Sure, your HOUSE is wired with copper. They outlawed aluminum wire in the entire house decades ago. But unless your electrical service is 50 years old, the wire from the pole to the meter is aluminum.

They recently replaced the wires outside (now the wiring is underground), but I do not know whether the wire is aluminium or copper. Could be aluminium, I can imagine the power company wanting to save money on the wire.

[ke4mcl]

Something tells me that somewhere there's an audiophile tweeker who will put
an expensive power cord on his 40 watt soldering iron. *wink*

dude thats genius! just make sure the electron flow is going the right way if not the handle will get hot and tip will stay cool. *smokin*

[DuckTape]

The Triplex from the pole to your house is aluminum wire, the entrance cable on your electrical entrance is aluminum wire.

No. It's not. It's a 270a cu from the meter to my house. This is fact.




edit - well, this my case, for my house, but your blanket statement still demonstrates your lack of knowledge for this sort of thing.

[DuckTape]

Sure, your HOUSE is wired with copper. They outlawed aluminum wire in the entire house decades ago.

Again. Not factual. Codes are local.

[DuckTape]

Once you've satisfied the maximum potential current draw of your device with proper gauge wire, your job is done.

No. It's not. Power supply quality is relative to locality, distance from production, method of distro, population density, age of infrastructure, etc.

[DuckTape]

Lastly Ricardus, you, like so many other anti upgrade choirboys, seem to completely (oh goodness, certainly not INTENTIONALLY) disregard the fact that an increasingly large number of folks out there use stand alone regens.

Now, what YOUR particular problem with the aftermarket industry is, I can only fathom, but before spreading more disinfo, maybe spend some time with a tech from your local utility and get the basic facts so you have a sound (get it? SOUND) foundation on which to refute claims of increased performance, whether anecdotal or factual.




FYI folks, the next post we see from Ric will be one stating no empirical evidence this and that yadda yadda, anecdotal only yadda yadda, no lab proven this and that, and the (as always) magic bullet of double blind flimdy flem with the convenient omission of the actual lab results from the mfrs and customers of regenerators.

[Pentium100]

Ok, the wiring from the power plant to the outlet is fixed. The power cable from the outlet to the device is probably only something like 3m long. Even if it is thick enough to power 10 devices at once, what difference will it make to the voltage in the primary of the power transformer in the device?

Well, let's see. 230V is quite high voltage, so unless the device uses a lot of power, the current will be something like 2A. The voltage drop over the cable will be negligible compared to 230V. For a 0.5mm^2 wire, 6m of it will have ~0.2Ohm resistance, the voltage drop will be 0.4V, or about 0.17%. The voltage in the outlet varies by more than that.

If you use some sort of power conditioner (or a on-line UPS) to make a cleaner waveform then the device should work better, especially if the AC is bad quality. However, just replacing the last 3 meters of cable should not result in any detectable effect.

[scotchtape]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
I heard no difference.
If you claim to hear a difference, IMO, it is down to human nature.

No one wants to be seen to have spent, unnecessarily, money amounting to a hard-working guy's monthly or weekly wage on something that improves the audible output of a system by an insignificant amount.

Oh - and by the way, OP, you will always open a can of worms when you provoke a debate on this, and similar subjects.

[kelvinmunson]

FYI folks, the next post we see from Ric will be one stating no empirical evidence this and that yadda yadda, anecdotal only yadda yadda, no lab proven this and that, and the (as always) magic bullet of double blind flimdy flem with the convenient omission of the actual lab results from the mfrs and customers of regenerators.

Isn't this absolutely correct ?

[ke4mcl]

considering the amount of wire behind the walls and the wiring in the breaker box, whats the point really?

you're 6ft power cable isn't going to matter much unless it's absurdly thin.

[cristo]

If you believe in the merits of expensive audiophile power cords, your next
step might be expensive directional audiophile quality power supply fuses.
Yep, directional ... if you put them in backwards by mistake, you'll contract
the soundstage and make your equipment sound worse.
I've read long threads elsewhere about their merits - hey, if it's on the
internet, it's gotta be true. They're said to improve transperency, details,
soundstage and extend the frequency range of your amp.
Yeah, right.

[HeadGap]

I just take any new gear I get and twirl the power cord around real fast so all the oxygen molecules in the copper wire go flying out the plug end, thereby giving me nice oxygen free copper cables. I do the same thing with my speaker cables. The neighbors think I’m nuts. *hypnot*

[Rat44]

I just take any new gear I get and twirl the power cord around real fast so all the oxygen molecules in the copper wire go flying out the plug end, thereby giving me nice oxygen free copper cables. I do the same thing with my speaker cables. The neighbors think I’m nuts. *hypnot*

Makes as much sense as some of the stuff I have heard as 'gospel'.*grin*

[ke4mcl]

I just take any new gear I get and twirl the power cord around real fast so all the oxygen molecules in the copper wire go flying out the plug end, thereby giving me nice oxygen free copper cables. I do the same thing with my speaker cables. The neighbors think I’m nuts. *hypnot*

hold up a second...
if you remove all the oxygen aren't you suffocating you're sound? *headache*

[Ricardus]

Again. Not factual. Codes are local.

Of course, and many municipalities have outlawed aluminum house wiring. But so what?

Your house may have copper between the meter and your inside entrance panel, but I would argue that in this day and age, most do not. Of all the electrical services I've installed and seen, nearly 100% are aluminum.

But that's here nor there.

The POINT here is that in the dozens, or hundreds of miles of electrical transmission wire between your house, and the power generating facility, there is lots of copper and aluminum wire being used.

Putting 3 feet of high quality wire between your duplex electrical outlet and your audio device isn't gonna change a thing. Your protestations are just smoke and mirrors to justify religion, and not science. (yeah, clearly double blind tests don't prove A THING)

I've said it before. With any and all cables, the point of diminishing returns comes quickly, and doesn't require a lot of money.

If you want to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a cable, be my guest, the P.T. Barnums of the world have seen you coming, and are thrilled to have your business.

Please see this video if you have ay further objections:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

[cristo]

Excellent presentation in that link, Ricardus.

[DuckTape]

Putting 3 feet of high quality wire between your duplex electrical outlet and your audio device isn't gonna change a thing. Your protestations are just smoke and mirrors to justify religion, and not science.

and as predicted from the bandwagoners, conveniently missing the part about using a regenerator.

and come on, that video...again? what was that part about religion?

no need to hate because you choose not to provide your components with cleaner power and / or cannot hear a difference.

[Pentium100]

and as predicted from the bandwagoners, conveniently missing the part about using a regenerator.

OK, if you use a regenerator (or a on-line UPS) then the device will work better. Still, no need to use a cable thick enough to power 5 times what the device is using. The cable is short and its resistance won't cause any problems (again, the voltage is 230V, so the current is small, it does not need a very thick cable. Also, whatever the voltage drop on the cable is, it won't be significant compared to 230V).

What cables are you using? 10mm^2? How much power does your device use?

[VintageSteve]

I don't want to open a can of worms, but ....

OH,Oh! Can open. Worms everywhere!
*eek*

[DuckTape]

What cables are you using? 10mm^2? How much power does your device use?

Cardas Crosslink and Clear M that my oldest brother gave me
The rest are Pangea AC-14SEs

[Web Police]

Are these after market A/C cables pre-burned or do you have to burn them in with an arc welder for a few years? *grin*

[Pentium100]

Pangea AC-14SEs

Only 2mm^2, good for only like 20A or so. That 4kW device might melt the cable. :)

On the other hand, I could get a 2mm^2 cable much cheaper than $30 for 1m cable. Also, why would someone need a shielded AC power cable? The wires in the walls are not shielded, so the room is full of 50Hz anyways.

For less than $30 I could buy a cable that would be thick enough to jump start a car and would be longer than 1m.

Also, it says that the cable is made using solid conductors and braided conductors for "high frequencies". While litz wire (stranded wire where each strand is insulated) is affected less by skin effect, how high frequencies are there? 51Hz? Since you mentioned that you use a regenerator, the voltage in that wire should be quite pure sine wave with little of higher frequency harmonics (which you don't want anyway).

[Socal Sam]

Uh, power cables? Please save your money. Take a look behind the IEC plug and you will likely see ordinary copper. Take a look behind your wall socket and you will see more of the same, although thicker. If these wires are in-line with your fancy (and expensive) boutique cable, you will not get the full benefits...if there are truly any to be had. You better bet is to go with a regulated power supply which will give constant and correct voltage.

[Socal Sam]

Of course they are - do you expect to power a 380V 100kW load with a 1mm^2 wire?Though if your device only uses something like 1kW (220V) then a thin wire might be OK, well, as long as it does not get very hot.


Oh, you mean AC power cables that supposedly improve the sound? As much as I doubt the effect of expensive signal cables, I doubt these even more. On te way from the generator to your device, the electricity passes trough several transformers and very likely tens if not hundreds of kilometers of wire (some of which may be underground, some above ground and some in the walls of your house). Unless you change the entire wire, I doubt that you will achieve a measurable effect, well, if the cable is thick enough to not melt the insulation when you turn on the device.

Bridge rectifier changes AC to DC before the signal path. Main caps (should) filter out whatever ripples are left.

[Q-Authority]

Okay, I just had to revive this thread as I've been out of touch for awhile, and this is somewhat dear to my heart. Now while I understand most people's concerns about expensive power cords, most seem not to understand that most true audiophile type power cords are not simply larger copper/silver connectors, or such. I'm definitely no scientist when it comes to this stuff, but I can wholeheartedly vouch for at least one company's products, though their latest line is insanely priced as far as I am concerned, and is a bit of an embarassment.

I did quite a bit of research on these things several years back, along with the proper upper end power conditioner, and after narrowing things down a bit I managed to actually find a local dealer who had the items I was interested in who allowed me a two week home audition.

I ended up demoing a Sound Application 'Line Reference' power conditioner, which could handle the many components I have, including a Denon 4806 receiver, without blinking an eye, and absolutely no power limiting, which was one of my main concerns. I used it along with two Elrod EPS-3 power cords, one to supply the power conditioner, and one from the conditioner to the Denon receiver.

The first few days were really interesting as the cords, even though they were used, did some burn-in duty, as they had not been powering anything at the audio shop recently. Talk about weird chnages, lol. By the 4th or fifth day though I could tell that they were coming around, and I decided to run a new auto set-up on the Denon 4806, utilizing the Audyssey MultEQ XT system. That's when I knew something special was happening.

While it was obvious that I needed to do some tinkering yet with speaker placement, the changes from pre-power conditioner/power cord set-up was amazing. The changes were definitely not subtle, and I knew then that I would shortly be chucking out the huge bucks to keep these things.

The best I can do regarding before and after descriptions of how these items change the sound field is to perhaps compare it to the difference between two hdtv sets, one small one of say 36" and another of say 56", where the picture quality of the larger set still is still equal to that of the smaller screen despite its larger size. Now in order to do that with a video screen one would need to increase the definition capability of the larger set substantially in order to maintain the same picture quality that the smaller set provided. What the larger set now provides you with is a much larger video field and significantly better separation of details than the smaller set did.

The combination of power conditioner/power cords had a very similar effect in that the overall soundfield appeared significantly larger, with the appearance of added detail probably due to the greater separation of musical nuances (I'm no music critic so that's about the best I can explain it, lol). In addition to this though, there was another new very pleasant aspect that I hadn't previously had. I was now able to use a much greater percentage of the overall Denon volume without reaching anything anything close to the distortion and other unbearable traits that would usually be heard when turning it up above a certain point. The weird thing was that the volume simply did not get louder in the usual sense. The volume certainly did go up, but in smaller increments than before, sort of like adding another gear or two to a 10-speed bicycle. At the same time the soundfield would also grow incrementally larger. Condsidering that I was using 96db sensitive speakers with a 150 watt limit, and a receiver capable of 150 watt per channel output, the results were really impressive. And what was really great was that the volume was never really annoying, and listening fatigue, even at quite loud levels was relatively minor.

Now I'm not going to claim that anyone is going to have the same results that I did, simply because I think the Denon's Audyssey setup had a lot to do with the final results. But to be clear, I did do comparisons of the final Audyssey setup results with and without the power cords, and soundfield shrinkage, thus less detail, was very apparent without the power cords in the system. And to clarify the Elrod Power cords are no simple larger copper conductor. What exactly they have going on inside these behemoths, I do not know, and couldn't begin to scientifically explain them even if I did, but the results speak for themselves. I absolutely swear by these things, at least when used as I have them set-up, and yes I think they were worth the insane price I paid for them, though fortunately I bought demo units that saved me a considerable amount, lol. In my mind they are a component and as absolutely important as any other piece of my system. And fortunately, unless they are possibly done in by a lightning strike, they are most likely going to last as long as I am around to listen to them, so in the long term they really are not as unreasonable a cost as many would think.

I know there are those that are just going to laugh this off, but it won't change the results I get, and that is all that really matters. And again, I want to say that these have not been subtle results. If that had been the case I would have passed on them myself. We're not talking green felt-tipped pens on the edges of your cds, lol.

[Rocker]

Firstly I live in Ireland, our electricity supply is 230 volt AC single ended. Standard house wiring is either a ring main or spur using 2.5mm squared twin and earth cables.

My system ran off a spur for several years. And I liked the sound. A few months ago I decided to install a dedicated supply from my MCB board and an electrician friend did the work. A new RCBO [10 mm squared supply from the utility company] and three 2.5 mm squared twin and earth in parallel to a twin socket in my music room. Three cables was all we could get into the socket connectors!!.

The difference between the single and the trio cables is not subtle. The trio reveals that the single adds compression to the sound. Compression that makes the sound somewhat more exciting to listen to but ultimately I prefer the trio as I can listen louder and less loud than before. Without strain.

Both sockets are close enough to allow quick comparisons. The result never varies. Trio shows up the compression of the single.

For the relatively small investment involved, this is an absolutely no brainer as they say these days. I have read lots of comments on this subject and most of them rubbish the suggestion that a mains cable can have any effect on the sound from your system. In my experience the mains cabling does make a difference and I found it all to the good. Despite reading all the 1950s text books on electricity, I have found no references to this phenomenon. Maybe I did not read the right books but my ears tell me I am hearing music 'better' when the system is plugged into the trio rather than the single.

[R.Daneel]

A power cord won't neccessarily improve things. Consumer grade products and even very expensive stuff usually have incredibly under-dimensioned power transformer(s) and very poor filtering. I'd say any uprgrade in this respect is way better and more sane than any power cord you can get. People often buy things like cables thinking thery improve sound when in fact all they do is change the electrical characteristics like resistance and capacitance and even this happens because of inherent design flaws in the audio components themselves such as the inssuficiently low output impedance. Power cords are a different story but same thing applies. Investing in a power regulator would be much better.

Audiopress always equals the importance of audio components and cables which isof interest to me.

[CottonSwab]

The "high performance" power cable between your gear and the wall is called a "doghouse" in the engineering world. That is what we call the filters inside equipment that clean the line before it is sent to the unit power supply. It doesn't matter that the world of power outside is dirty as long as you stop it from getting to your equipment somehow. The high end Shunyata power cords do exactly this and there are others but I am less familiar.

There is a difference in sound when you are rectifying clean AC vs noise on the power lines. Noise from Generators, Refridgerators, Furnace motors, Air Conditioners, RF, other peoples homes you name it. It is a bit easier to filter inside the regulated supply as well when the line input is conditioned.

[Ghitulescu]

A hifi or highend gear MUST be interference free. These should not pass through by design.

Cleaning the AC input voltage, but leaving the switching noise from the power supply on, is also a nice performance.

Wasted money. Voodoo magic, marketing balooney ...

[AnalogueTim]

Well, a power cable can be important for the safety of persons, it must have good flexible isolation and perfectly attached plugs, i think it's more about safety here, anyway the hi-end gear is already inside filtered:)

[CottonSwab]

Well, a power cable can be important for the safety of persons, it must have good flexible isolation and perfectly attached plugs, i think it's more about safety here, anyway the hi-end gear is already inside filtered:)

I Totally agree Tim! The internal line filtering is quite important and by default in the design. Some of the power cords on my high end gear I would never switch out - nice quality for sure.

[Q-Authority]

Okay, pardon my ignorance, but I have never really heard of hi-end power cords having filtering capabilities before (of course very little has ever been spoken about how they work). Could you please explain how that is accomplished? The only real explanations I have heard much of before, for their unique capabilities, were in regards to them possibly acting somewhat as a capacitor.

I have used Elrod pc's in the past, and while I certainly have never understood precisely how they work their ability to improve the overall sound was undeniable.

[CottonSwab]

Okay, pardon my ignorance, but I have never really heard of hi-end power cords having filtering capabilities before (of course very little has ever been spoken about how they work). Could you please explain how that is accomplished? The only real explanations I have heard much of before, for their unique capabilities, were in regards to them possibly acting somewhat as a capacitor.

I have used Elrod pc's in the past, and while I certainly have never understood precisely how they work their ability to improve the overall sound was undeniable.

The wiring of the power cord is configured as a twisted pair or three wire if you will. This acts like a choke where the cutoff frequency is set by the number of turns per inch.
It's called a "poor mans coax".

Ron

[Robroy]

It would be a more productive use of time to discuss the maximum number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. First, we need to establish the type of pin, and then the quality of the metal from which it was made.

Never mind. Sometimes I come here and a simple facepalm smiley just doesn't quite say it.

I'm having a very "left my diplomacy at the cleaners" kind of day. Sorry. Carry on...

[AnalogueTim]

There are many situations when an audible hum is disturbing the audition, many times doesn't help just replacing the signal cables, if the power cable is acting like an antena capturing all the interference and transport them very near to other cables, in this case internal device filtering doesn't help, i experienced that with my turntables, single solution to get rid of hum and unwanted noises was to replacing the cables, i mean all of them, signal, power, everything, and believe me it's a big difference. :)

[Pentium100]

i experienced that with my turntables, single solution to get rid of hum and unwanted noises was to replacing the cables, i mean all of them, signal, power, everything, and believe me it's a big difference. :)

Yes, starting with the wires that come out of the power plant. Then all the transformers, all the high voltage lines, then the low voltage (220V) lines (also probably a few km, then the wires in the house and finally the cable between the power outlet and the device.

Just replacing the last few meters of cable and keeping the wiring in the house and from the last transformer to the house (let's say 1km) won't change a thing. Especially if the low voltage line is on the poles instead of underground. High voltage lines are all above ground.

As for hum, you know, the power line is full of hum - 50Hz. The cable won't get rid of it.

[AnalogueTim]

Yes, starting with the wires that come out of the power plant. Then all the transformers, all the high voltage lines, then the low voltage (220V) lines (also probably a few km, then the wires in the house and finally the cable between the power outlet and the device.

Just replacing the last few meters of cable and keeping the wiring in the house and from the last transformer to the house (let's say 1km) won't change a thing. Especially if the low voltage line is on the poles instead of underground. High voltage lines are all above ground.

As for hum, you know, the power line is full of hum - 50Hz. The cable won't get rid of it.

That's my hum story, the 1,5 m cable which i had to my turntable was the source of the hum which i got, just replacing that with another better one helped me to get rid of hum, in my case the power cable was faulty, but that depends by the situation:)

[CottonSwab]

Yes, starting with the wires that come out of the power plant. Then all the transformers, all the high voltage lines, then the low voltage (220V) lines (also probably a few km, then the wires in the house and finally the cable between the power outlet and the device.

Just replacing the last few meters of cable and keeping the wiring in the house and from the last transformer to the house (let's say 1km) won't change a thing. Especially if the low voltage line is on the poles instead of underground. High voltage lines are all above ground.

As for hum, you know, the power line is full of hum - 50Hz. The cable won't get rid of it.

Then perhaps I should remove the line filtering components inside my gear as it's all in vain. As for the 50hz, the power supply filter removes that or I've got some caps to change.

[Pentium100]

in my case the power cable was faulty, but that depends by the situation:)

Well, if the cable does not make a good connection then there could be problems, but a new regular cable (or just a new plug) can fix it, no need to buy an expensive cable to have a good conection.

Then perhaps I should remove the line filtering components inside my gear as it's all in vain. As for the 50hz, the power supply filter removes that or I've got some caps to change.

Wait, your expensive cable is now a filter too, meaning it has large inductance and capacitance, hopefully having a resonance frequency of 50Hz? I don't think so (unless your cable is extremely long), the cable is just a cable, it passes on all the distortions and everything to the power supply of your device, which then filters it all out. The two problems you can have with a bad cable are too high resistance (may be a problem for devices operating near the rated current of the cable) or an intermittent connection. You don't need an expensive cable for that.

[CottonSwab]

I never said anything about an expensive cable only how the twisted pair noise reduction cable works to help block noise on the line. That's all.

[AnalogueTim]

Well, if the cable does not make a good connection then there could be problems

In my case was not bad connection, i replaced the cartridge with higher output one, tha RCA cables are soldered inside not with external connection and are too near with power cable, replacing RCA cables was not the solution because the hum was still there, only after replacing the power cable the hum was gone, the truth is that turntables are very sensitive to interference and in many cases the hum it's very hard to remove.:)

[Ghitulescu]

Those cables, which are no way cheap, are designed to be sold to audiophile snobs.

What are the interferences? Not many - electric motors in the household (like kitchen mixers), street-cars nearby, motorcycles, atmospheric discharges, cosmic radiation, solar eruptions, electric welding on a nearby construction site ...

The common thing (except for cosmic radiation) is that they are short pulsed.

There are two main types of power supplies. The old design, and the switching one.

The old design has a downconverting trafo from 220/230/240 or 110/120 V to 12V (up to 36V for High End and pro gear). Then the eg 10 fold still alternating lower voltage is rectified by a bridge of diodes, and the 100/120 Hz pulses are then levelled by a capacitor. This is the basic power supply, the latest ones have better filtering stages and the diodes are decoupled to minimize their own noise.

What happens when a lightning surcharges the power plant lines? A pulse of high voltage but very short duration (picoseconds, maybe microseconds) is induced in the aerial wires (those buried are less affected). This pulse reaches the low voltage downconverting trafo for the neighbourhood, then enters your house. It reaches then the trafo. Theoretically it should be downconverted eg 10 fold and thus be heard as a click. False. Because pulses in pico/microseconds range are actually electromagnetical waves (EM) in MHz range, and these won't go through the trafo, as every electroengineer knows that a coil has a lower impedance (resistance) at low frequencies (ideally at 0Hz) but this increases with the signal frequency. Until it reaches the red wire on your motherboard, the pulse has already been filtered twice (once in the neighbourhood trafo, secondly in your trafo), but most of the PSUs also have several drossels as well. Impact: none! All trafos are designed to work at 50 or 60Hz to minimize the losses.

The same is for irregular pulses that propagate through the power lines.

The second PSU, the switched one. Here we still have a trafo, but this has a different function, and does not separate the PSU from the mains. That's bad. Then there is a switching element (be it a transistor for A/V applications, but it can equally be a thyristor or a triac for industrial applications, like in a drilling machine) that is switched ON and OFF by a controlled oscillator in the range of many kHz up to few MHz. The current flows while the "gate" is ON and is stopped when it's OFF. Varying the ON/OF cycles, one can establish the amount of electricity that passes through, which integrated gives a voltage. Now, this PSU is very noisy, so lots of filters are needed to keep the residual OSC freq at a minimum. The external noise, like in the regular PSU, reaches the trafo, just to be naturally eliminated. Those that still pass through are in the same band of frequencies as the switching OSC, and must be rejected by the same filters.

Bottom line - any good designed PSU should reject all powerline noises.

This is a very short explanation, and it may not be accurate due to different/new implementations or alternative solutions ... but it should give a good insight for non-technicals among us.

The cake cherry: Is this enough?
No. And this is where HiFi and HighEnd gear come into play. Those interferences, that induce noise in the power lines, will induce the same noise in the wires INSIDE the case (many PCs could actually catch the spinning noise of the CD if the analog cable connecting it to the soundboard is not properly grounded). Since eg the voltages given by a microphone, or by a magnetic head are very small, if the apparatus is not properly designed and grounded, no wonder cable, no wonder fuse, no power conditioners can solve that.

[80s-Teen]

Proper, scientific, double-blind testing, or it never happened! *flame*

[CottonSwab]

Those cables, which are no way cheap, are designed to be sold to audiophile snobs.

Thank You Ghitulescu.

And with your remarks in this seemingly pleasant form I am saying goodbye to the forum.

To all my good friends at TapeHeads thank you for all you have done to help me in this difficult time of my life. I have rediscovered a hobby I always loved and been given the inspiration to continue as all here have.

And thank you Matt for all you have done to support us in this hobby.
Sincerely-
Ron *hope*

[shadowlord]

Those cables, which are no way cheap, are designed to be sold to audiophile snobs.



Maybe your gear isn't good/transparent enough to notice a difference?
Line noise can have a negative effect on your gears performance and filtering definitely helps.(Best way would be a dedicated power line for your stereo and a filter.)
Given this and your responses in other threads of latel,y shows you're deadlocked in you limited mindset.

[AnalogueTim]

twisted pair noise reduction cable works to help block noise on the line.

Now that's a good ideea, i just read something about twisted pair cables on the net, they looks very promising and i think i'm gonna try that, well in this hobby everything worth a try, i let you know my opinion, Thanks Ron*bigthumbup*

[Ghitulescu]

Maybe your gear isn't good/transparent enough to notice a difference?
Line noise can have a negative effect on your gears performance and filtering definitely helps.(Best way would be a dedicated power line for your stereo and a filter.)
Given this and your responses in other threads of latel,y shows you're deadlocked in you limited mindset.

I am stubborn maybe because I don't understand why such great prevention measures are not implemented in high end gear in the first place. I mentioned high end because there the money plays no role (what's 200€ more or less near 27000$). Why do I need to pay extra 199€ for a cable in addition to a 27000$ Mark Levinson player, when they could have implemented this simple and effective means of cleaning the noise, which MUST be heard on such an expensive gear. Because it's not needed. A PSU that let these interferences in, is either faulty or badly designed.

A colleague of mine who works in the field of speakers and related stuff, told me that for decades these exploit the weaknesses of the hearing (following the path of Bose 901). They don't invent anything to improve the purity of the sound (because it's not longer possible), just they trick the senses to think it's better. Then the marketing kicks in and make customers believe in what they sell.

Believe me (and my friend), a lot of music specialists will be ashamed by simple ABX tests (I worked once in ABX testing in a different field and believe me I know how one can trick them).

PS: I have tested one of these line conditioners once. Apart from a nice readout of THD on the input power, no difference in the analogue audio out THD. The CD player was an entry level JVC of the early 1990s (ok, that time most entry level products were still better engineered than midrange products of today).

[Ghitulescu]

In the early 2000ies, a well renowned German manufacturer of cables (the Rolls Royce of cable) was discovered to use telephone line grade copper (Litze in German) in its most expensive (and alleged best) series of audio cables. They wondered how could they score so well in the ABX tests performed by several audio magazines, compared to the competitors, if they used such a non-audio grade material, not that telephone copper is bad in any sense, just being not OFC, not whatever crystalline type and other marketing "discoveries". The telephone copper could transport higher frequencies that the audio needed on longer distances, too bad it was not marketed as such. Imagine how expensive would have been the wiring of a new house to the main trunk, if for 1m that company (I'm not writing its name, now they manufacture good products, till they'll be caught again) asked some 50DM (at that time, ~25€) from the telephone company.

As one can understand, there has never been the question how come that the telephone line copper could have such wonderful audio properties, instead was the question how come these cables were some 1000x more expensive than this regular cable? We understand that lots of research man-hours have been needed to test this wonderful material in a complete different field :)

[Q-Authority]

You know, some of the arguments made against items, such as those that are being discussed in this thread, are just sad! Mostly made by people who I would almost guarantee have never heard a proper setup with and without the items discussed. Yes, there are many supposedly hi-end items out there that truly are no more than glorified pieces of junk, and unfortunately, because of that lots of people dismiss everything related to the field. Despite centuries of scientific development, the only thing that has changed much on this rock is the total amount of overall information regarding the world around us. Knowledge and objectivity, on the other hand, are still woefully lacking.

In regards to the argument about whether or not differences can be heard, or seen, when using the discussed items, it does not take truly exotic ridiculously over priced equipment to take advantage of it. I, for one, have combined some relatively everyday audio/video components along with what most would surely considering rather expensive power conditioning/pc components, and have heard/seen amazing differences. The particular power conditioner itself has been used in more than one notable mastering/listening studio. I would rather expect those people to know a little something about the audio/video field, and what does and does not make a difference. But even so, I wouldn't let their opinions completely sway me one way or the other. Seeing, and hearing, is believing!

In the end, its the personal experience that ends up selling this stuff, for the most part. That being said, I'm sure that millions of dollars worth of relatively useless stuff, in terms of overall listening/visual improvement, is sold every year to people who simply want to believe that it makes a difference. But there are also lots of truly system enhancing components sold as well. And I do consider the proper items as system components, as for one they will generally last as long, or longer, than any of your standard components, and secondly they definitely improve upon sound/visuals every bit as much as better components do.

Those that blindly oppose these items as a whole are not much better better than those that constantly rant about the moon landing, and such, being hoaxes. And as for those that occasionally chose to select one form of measurement as an argument against such components, give me a break. There are literally dozens of ways to measure audio/video signals, and no one measurement will necessarily tell you much by itself.

[showtaper]

Firstly I live in Ireland, our electricity supply is 230 volt AC single ended. Standard house wiring is either a ring main or spur using 2.5mm squared twin and earth cables.

My system ran off a spur for several years. And I liked the sound. A few months ago I decided to install a dedicated supply from my MCB board and an electrician friend did the work. A new RCBO [10 mm squared supply from the utility company] and three 2.5 mm squared twin and earth in parallel to a twin socket in my music room. Three cables was all we could get into the socket connectors!!.

The difference between the single and the trio cables is not subtle. The trio reveals that the single adds compression to the sound. Compression that makes the sound somewhat more exciting to listen to but ultimately I prefer the trio as I can listen louder and less loud than before. Without strain.

Both sockets are close enough to allow quick comparisons. The result never varies. Trio shows up the compression of the single.

For the relatively small investment involved, this is an absolutely no brainer as they say these days. I have read lots of comments on this subject and most of them rubbish the suggestion that a mains cable can have any effect on the sound from your system. In my experience the mains cabling does make a difference and I found it all to the good. Despite reading all the 1950s text books on electricity, I have found no references to this phenomenon. Maybe I did not read the right books but my ears tell me I am hearing music 'better' when the system is plugged into the trio rather than the single.

Measure the voltage of the two outlets.......

[Ghitulescu]

You know, some of the arguments made against items, such as those that are being discussed in this thread, are just sad! Mostly made by people who I would almost guarantee have never heard a proper setup with and without the items discussed. Yes, there are many supposedly hi-end items out there that truly are no more than glorified pieces of junk, and unfortunately, because of that lots of people dismiss everything related to the field. Despite centuries of scientific development, the only thing that has changed much on this rock is the total amount of overall information regarding the world around us. Knowledge and objectivity, on the other hand, are still woefully lacking.

In regards to the argument about whether or not differences can be heard, or seen, when using the discussed items, it does not take truly exotic ridiculously over priced equipment to take advantage of it. I, for one, have combined some relatively everyday audio/video components along with what most would surely considering rather expensive power conditioning/pc components, and have heard/seen amazing differences. The particular power conditioner itself has been used in more than one notable mastering/listening studio. I would rather expect those people to know a little something about the audio/video field, and what does and does not make a difference. But even so, I wouldn't let their opinions completely sway me one way or the other. Seeing, and hearing, is believing!

In the end, its the personal experience that ends up selling this stuff, for the most part. That being said, I'm sure that millions of dollars worth of relatively useless stuff, in terms of overall listening/visual improvement, is sold every year to people who simply want to believe that it makes a difference. But there are also lots of truly system enhancing components sold as well. And I do consider the proper items as system components, as for one they will generally last as long, or longer, than any of your standard components, and secondly they definitely improve upon sound/visuals every bit as much as better components do.

Those that blindly oppose these items as a whole are not much better better than those that constantly rant about the moon landing, and such, being hoaxes. And as for those that occasionally chose to select one form of measurement as an argument against such components, give me a break. There are literally dozens of ways to measure audio/video signals, and no one measurement will necessarily tell you much by itself.

Line conditioners are not used in studios to improve the sound or the video performance of the rigs. It improves, as you said, the reliability of the gear, and keeps them protected from outer bad influences (voltage peaks that could destroy the PSUs, for instance). Something like the UPSes for computers. They work better with the old style PSUs, as they need constant parameters at input.

[Q-Authority]

Line conditioners are not used in studios to improve the sound or the video performance of the rigs. It improves, as you said, the reliability of the gear, and keeps them protected from outer bad influences (voltage peaks that could destroy the PSUs, for instance). Something like the UPSes for computers. They work better with the old style PSUs, as they need constant parameters at input.
The one I use has no voltage regulation. It is solely advertised (not that there is actually any advertising for this model, lol) as preventing crud from coming in on the electrical input. The manufacturer also mostly uses video for improvement testing as it is a method that more people can agree to as to what, if any, improvements are made.

Even with its use, however, there are times of the day when video quality is better than others, due to the crap on the power lines. My late night hi-def viewing was almost always exceptionally better than during the day, at a house that had overhead power lines, and the improved results at that time of night were significant. Watching Letterman or Leno was like looking through a pane of glass at times. I moved to a house not far from the previous one, which had buried power cables, and the tv hi-def video was never nearly as good, no matter what time of day, contrary to what many might think (and that was with all new cable lines).

[Ghitulescu]

The one I use has no voltage regulation. It is solely advertised (not that there is actually any advertising for this model, lol) as preventing crud from coming in on the electrical input. The manufacturer also mostly uses video for improvement testing as it is a method that more people can agree to as to what, if any, improvements are made.

Even with its use, however, there are times of the day when video quality is better than others, due to the crap on the power lines. My late night hi-def viewing was almost always exceptionally better than during the day, at a house that had overhead power lines, and the improved results at that time of night were significant. Watching Letterman or Leno was like looking through a pane of glass at times. I moved to a house not far from the previous one, which had buried power cables, and the tv hi-def video was never nearly as good, no matter what time of day, contrary to what many might think (and that was with all new cable lines).

As I explained several posts above, the ubiquitary switching PSUs do not have galvanic isolation. Because of this, several PSUs can interfere one to each other. In countries with "reversible" plugs (like Germany, one can rotate the plug with 180° and it still fits in) reversing the phase (brown wire) with the null (blue wire) by replugging the stecker can perform wonders. This can also may protect gear connected to different phases of a triphasic line.

However, most reception problems are due to ground loop (the antenna, whatever it may be, is galvanically connected to the power lines. The best solution is to cut the shielding and replace it with a capacitor (or buy a galvanic isolator or whatever it may be called in English for 1 or 2€ that does the same in an elegant way).

[Pentium100]

As I explained several posts above, the ubiquitary switching PSUs do not have galvanic isolation.

Wrong. If the power supply didn't have galvanic isolation, the output would be live and shock anybody who touches the device. Switching power supplies have transformers, just that those transformers are smaller because they operate at higher frequencies.

The only device that can be not isolated from the mains is one that has no user touchable metal parts or those metal parts are grounded and the device is not connected to any other device by an electrical cable (optic links would probably be OK).

[Ghitulescu]

If you did care to read one of my former messages you would have known that I knew this.

But nobody forces you to believe me, just make use of a voltmeter. Or watch for sparks in a dark room. Or read the schematics. Or read the manuals that advise the user to make the conections before powering them on.

PS: galvanic doesn't mean short-circuit, it simply involves an uninterrupted circuit in DC.

[ke4mcl]

guys,

all this power cable talk is nice but none of it address the fact that your power is coming from a utility grid. you're amazing power cord will mean nothing once you hit the meter can outside the dwelling.

its like saying that 3ft of silver speaker wire sounds amazing despite the other 10 ft of zip cord.

unless you are running a regenerator, all this power cable talk is really just going around in circles.

[Robroy]

guys,

all this power cable talk is nice but none of it address the fact that your power is coming from a utility grid. you're amazing power cord will mean nothing once you hit the meter can outside the dwelling.

its like saying that 3ft of silver speaker wire sounds amazing despite the other 10 ft of zip cord.

unless you are running a regenerator, all this power cable talk is really just going around in circles.
:)

And 70 posts. People love controversial issues.*headache*

[EscapeVelo]

These really stabilize the magneto-tachyon field for a solid but not obtrusive foundation for the soundstage. Truly a bargain at $1000 a piece.


LessLoss Blackbody (http://dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=786)

http://dagogo.com/assets/images/image/CABLES%20&%20ACCESSORIES/LessLoss%20Blackbody/LessLossBlackbody-1.jpg

[EscapeVelo]

As for power...I like these TripLites


ISOBAR AVBAR10
(http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtSeriesID=829&txtModelID=4134)
ISOBAR AVBAR8 (http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtSeriesID=829&txtModelID=4135)

ISOBAR AVBAR6 (http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtSeriesID=829&txtModelID=4136)

ISOBAR HT10DBS (http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtSeriesID=829&txtModelID=2813)

ISOBAR6DBS (http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtSeriesID=825&txtModelID=2814)

and these CyberPowers

1030HT (http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/surge-protectors/home-theater/1030HT.html)

1010HT (http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/surge-protectors/home-theater/1010HT.html)

and if I really get crazy this Belkin Power Conditioner

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/3578944/aview/belkin_AP11000-10_power_conditioner_final.JPG

[Warped Bezel]

That's a surge protector with a filter.

If you have that kind of trouble ti won't matter so much how many joules are involved.

I would consider checking your equipment's power supply thoroughly as that's going to fry your set more times in relation to the line.

In tubed sets, certain RECTIFIERS pose far greater danger to the set, capable of destroying the set. While it is true that many of those sets are 'hot' (transformerless) and the rectifier is in essense the top of the food chain/power cord, in the end why should transformer sets/solid state be much different?

[Warped Bezel]

guys,

all this power cable talk is nice but none of it address the fact that your power is coming from a utility grid. you're amazing power cord will mean nothing once you hit the meter can outside the dwelling.

its like saying that 3ft of silver speaker wire sounds amazing despite the other 10 ft of zip cord.

unless you are running a regenerator, all this power cable talk is really just going around in circles.

Good think I know so many amateur radio operators or I couldn't even afford to be in the dark like I am *flame*

[Dazen1]

And with your remarks in this seemingly pleasant form I am saying goodbye to the forum.

To all my good friends at TapeHeads thank you for all you have done to help me in this difficult time of my life.

What's up Ron?

Why you leaving?

[EscapeVelo]

Thank You Ghitulescu.

And with your remarks in this seemingly pleasant form I am saying goodbye to the forum.

To all my good friends at TapeHeads thank you for all you have done to help me in this difficult time of my life. I have rediscovered a hobby I always loved and been given the inspiration to continue as all here have.

And thank you Matt for all you have done to support us in this hobby.
Sincerely-
Ron *hope*

I always enjoyed your posts. These types of discussions always seem to bring out the worst in people.

Hope you come back at some point and share your interest and passion.

[Warped Bezel]

I have no idea what all that is about. It happens though and it's not the first time or place. Some go for good, some come back, at least we was HERE and it was good to see him.

[AnalogueTim]

These types of discussions always seem to bring out the worst in people.

And that happen because some people don't understand that this is a hobby for many of us and must be a pleasant one, he just tried to share with us the new cable experience and someone transformed that in arguing matter so it's not pleasant at all, anyway i hope he'll comeback soon*hope*