hi-fi vcr

[dingus]

i dont have a tape source ie; rtr or cassette, or do i? whats the skinny on hi-fi vcr's, and how do they compare to rtr's?

[niklasthedolphin]

HiFi VHS/VCR machine's data sheets are confusing and misleading at some points.

There are machines which use the whole width of the tape for sound and where you have adjustable input/output on sound.

Then there's these machines calling themselves HiFi VHS machines without using the whole width of the tape and without adjustable I/O.

Record a HiFi VHS tape on one machine and see if your lucky enough to get it to play decent music on another machine.

Tracking is a major compatibility problem.

Search one particular song on one tape made in LongPlay. I wish you good luck.

FWIW when all conditions are best, the sound can be great.
I would say it gets close to the high sound quality of R2R.................when conditions are the best..............but only close.
The transport mechanism of the VHS/VCR system is much more fragile, unstable and prone to get dirty than a R2R.
The sound amplification system internaly is never built like the best R2R.
Etc. etc.

But it's fun to have IMHO.
Well, I find it fun to have as many sources playable as possible.

"dolph"

[Skywavebe]

Hi Dolph and others;
Hi Fi is only defined as when it uses the Video head for the recording of the FM encoded signal. The other parts of HiFi that you may have referred to was that some decks had Stereo Linear record/play heads and some had Dolby on them which was not always switchable. Just like DAT that a lot of people swear by, interchange (tracking error) has always been a problem and this requires that the machine be properly maintained which most are not. It is also true that as the size of the tape gets smaller- DAT being the smallest, the more critical the parts must be kept clean and in good condition. VHS due to it's sloppy manufacture most of the time had many problems such as switching noise. This was just an adjustment 99% of the time. Beta decks did not have that issue. At least the good ones did not. Hi Fi Video tape was good when it was in good condition but there were limits. Close is the correct term as a Reel with dBx can surpass the VHS quality in some respects. Cassette decks also can do a very nice job if cleaned and if you have a good one- the good thing is that a lot of companies made some good ones and those are the ones I go after- I have too many actually but I hate to see a good machine go to the can.
Sam,

[dingus]

thanks for the thorough replies. i'll hold off on the vcr and try for a rtr.

[MacGyver]

many VCRs are misleading POSes, but you can safely bet the farm on this baby...




MITSUBISHI HS-U70 (1988)


http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/MITSUBISHI/HS-U70409.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/MITSUBISHI/HS-U7022.jpg

[dingus]

thats certainly a gorgeous beast John, is it yours?

[MacGyver]

thats certainly a gorgeous beast John, is it yours?



yes indeed...o-o:-)

[DaveInVA]

This is my favorite VHS HiFi deck. I have 2 of these JVC BR7000ur machines kicking around...
I think my Sony SL1800 Pro Beta HiFi sounds better than any of the VHS HiFi decks though.

Dave

[braxus]

I used to make copies of CD songs onto VHS Hifi with my Hitachi S-VHS vcr. It had adjustable audio input levels, so it didn't screw up the sound like newer machines do.

How again does Beta Hifi work? I understand it records the audio different then VHS Hifi. It was because Beta Hifi had a patent or something, that VHS Hifi had to do it differently.

[Marek]

I used to have an akai vhs/hifi deck with meters and I think variable levels.

It was awsome for movies, but developed noise after a few playings for music.

i dont have a tape source ie; rtr or cassette, or do i? whats the skinny on hi-fi vcr's, and how do they compare to rtr's?

[graffias79]

Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia on the subject:

"Around 1985, JVC added HiFi audio to VHS (in response to Betamax's introduction of Beta Hi-Fi.) Both VHS HiFi and Betamax HiFi delivered flat full-range frequency-response (20 Hz to 20 kHz), excellent 70 dB S/N ratio (in consumer space, second only to the audio compact-disc), and studio-grade channel-separation (more than 70dB.) This method of VCR audio, known as audio frequency modulation (AFM), recorded each of the 2 stereo channels (L, R) on a frequency-modulated carrier, embedding the modulated audio-signal pair into the video-signal. To avoid crosstalk and interference from the primary video-carrier, VHS's implemenation of AFM relied on a form of magnetic recording called depth multiplexing. The modulated-audio carrier pair was placed under the luminance carrier (below <1.6MHz), and recorded first. Subsequently, the video-head erases and re-records the video-signal over the same tape-surface, but video-signal's higher center-frequency results in a shallower magnetization of the tape, allowing both the video and residual AFM-audio signal to coexist on tape. (PAL versions of Beta HiFi use this same technique.) During playback, VHS HiFi recovers the depth-recorded AFM-signal by subtracting the audiohead's signal (which contains the AFM-signal contaminated by a weak image of the video-signal) from the videohead's signal (which contains only the video-signal), then demodulates the left and right audio-channels from their respective frequency-carriers. The end result of the complex process was audio of outstanding fidelity, which was uniformly solid across all tape-speeds (EP or SP.) Since JVC had gone through the complexity of ensuring HiFi's backward compatibility with non-HiFi VCRs, virtually all studio home-video releases contained HiFi audiotracks (in addition to linear-stereo.)

The excellent sound quality of HiFi VHS attracted the attention of amateur and hobbyist recording artists. home recording enthusiasts occasionally recorded high-quality stereo mixdowns and master recordings from multitrack audio tape onto consumer-level HiFi VCRs. However, because the VHS HiFi recording-process is intertwined with VCR's the video-recording function, advanced editing functions such as audio-only or video-only dubbing are impossible.

The considerable complexity and additional hardware limited VHS HiFi to high-end decks for many years. While linear-stereo all but disappeared from home VHS decks, it was not until the mid-1990s that HiFi became a standard feature on VHS decks. Even then, few customers were aware of its significance."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS#Audio_Upgrade_from_Lo-Fi_Monaural_to_Hi-Fi_Stereo

[revcom]

I think the big problem with VHS-HiFi and Beta-HiFi is that they were not designed specifically for audio. Both were designed to improve the audio associated with movies, which is not as demanding as stand alone audio. Both systems used Compandors to improve the S/N ratio, which could lead to a pumping effect on demanding music segments. Both also had a tendency to pick up a buzz from the FM carrier which they were riding on. Sony developed the PCM recording, which was available on their high end Beta machines, for critical audio music recording.
Sony's HiFi implementaion carried the audio signal between the Chroma and Luminance signal, while VHS HiFi carried the audio signal at a different depth level in the tape and the video signal was recorded right over it.
I do not believe either system was ever as good as RTR or the best cassette decks.

[Marek]

My experience bears this out.

Based on the specs vhs/hifi should have been great for music but in my case it really didn't work well.

I think the big problem with VHS-HiFi and Beta-HiFi is that they were not designed specifically for audio. Both were designed to improve the audio associated with movies, which is not as demanding as stand alone audio. Both systems used Compandors to improve the S/N ratio, which could lead to a pumping effect on demanding music segments. Both also had a tendency to pick up a buzz from the FM carrier which they were riding on. Sony developed the PCM recording, which was available on their high end Beta machines, for critical audio music recording.
Sony's HiFi implementaion carried the audio signal between the Chroma and Luminance signal, while VHS HiFi carried the audio signal at a different depth level in the tape and the video signal was recorded right over it.
I do not believe either system was ever as good as RTR or the best cassette decks.

[stripedcat99]

It can work very well, but usually that is when the tape is played on the same machine it was recorded on. Decks that have adjustable recording level controls are much better if you are planning to use them for music. I have a Teac (cant remember the model) that is so equipped, along with VU meters and it is pretty good as an audio-only deck. My family also had an early one, an Akai VS603U which was the same way, but some logic circuit was damaged at some point and it wouldn't stay turned on anymore.

[MacGyver]

another strong recommendation, the equal of the MITSU HS-U70 above;




JVC HR-S8000U (1988)




http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/JVC/JVCHR-S8000U.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/JVC/DSCF0237.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/JVC/HR-S8000UBRAXUS4.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/JVC/7158_3.jpg

[niklasthedolphin]

That JVC VCR are very delightful to look at.
I wish I could see a close up of the function panel when folded out.

"dolph"

[MacGyver]

how's this, niklas?



http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/JVC/DSCF0299.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/JVC/DSCF0302.jpg



http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/JVC/DSCF0301.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/JVC/DSCF0303.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/JVC/DSCF0304.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/JVC/DSCF0305.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/JVC/DSCF0306.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/JVC/DSCF0307.jpg

[niklasthedolphin]

That's just great, thanks.

"dolph"

[JaeTee]

Wow, I'm glad I saw this thread... I have a Panasonic NV-F55 that my father gave me. He picked it up while living in Germany in the 90's and gave it to me when he moved back to the US and switched to DVDs.

I dabbled with recording audio with it back in 2001 and haven't really played it since. So, newly inspired by this thread, I just popped in one of those tapes and am realizing that I had completely forgotten how good that thing sounds!!!! It makes fantastic audio recordings (specs from manual state 90db dynamic range for audio, .005% w&f, 20-20k freq. resp) and there is even a section in the manual dedicated to instruct how to properly use it for audio hi-fi recordings. No need for NR on this puppy!

Not only does it do that, but it will also allow you to watch NTSC tapes on a PAL TV. Granted, that's a "who cares" feature here and now, but for Americans living in Europe in the 90's it was a HUGE benefit! I guess that will come in handy if I ever move back to Germany....

I think I will force the issue and start using it to master DJ mixes at home again. The stereo separation, punch and high-end clarity is amazing for electronic dance music. I still have some TDK SA VHS tapes around here somewhere....

[jbeckva]

Wow, I'm glad I saw this thread... I have a Panasonic NV-F55 that my father gave me. He picked it up while living in Germany in the 90's and gave it to me when he moved back to the US and switched to DVDs.

I dabbled with recording audio with it back in 2001 and haven't really played it since. So, newly inspired by this thread, I just popped in one of those tapes and am realizing that I had completely forgotten how good that thing sounds!!!! It makes fantastic audio recordings (specs from manual state 90db dynamic range for audio, .005% w&f, 20-20k freq. resp) and there is even a section in the manual dedicated to instruct how to properly use it for audio hi-fi recordings. No need for NR on this puppy!

Not only does it do that, but it will also allow you to watch NTSC tapes on a PAL TV. Granted, that's a "who cares" feature here and now, but for Americans living in Europe in the 90's it was a HUGE benefit! I guess that will come in handy if I ever move back to Germany....

I think I will force the issue and start using it to master DJ mixes at home again. The stereo separation, punch and high-end clarity is amazing for electronic dance music. I still have some TDK SA VHS tapes around here somewhere....

My first hifi vcr was an old Realistic bought new in 1990. I recorded some metallica on it back then, and that tape lasted quite awhile. Impressed me as well.

Thing is, definitely not all hifi vcr's are equal, sound-wise. I thought I was upgrading when I bought a memorex new in 95 - serious disappointment. I should have known better when it didn't have level displays like the realistic did. (hmmm.. speaking of which.. where DID that realistic go? hmmm... *eyepop*)

[JaeTee]

My first hifi vcr was an old Realistic bought new in 1990. I recorded some metallica on it back then, and that tape lasted quite awhile. Impressed me as well.

Thing is, definitely not all hifi vcr's are equal, sound-wise. I thought I was upgrading when I bought a memorex new in 95 - serious disappointment. I should have known better when it didn't have level displays like the realistic did. (hmmm.. speaking of which.. where DID that realistic go? hmmm... *eyepop*)

There are some nice units displayed in this thread. I remember I had a Hitachi before. That deck developed a transport problem and I threw it away. Too bad. Looks like if you know what model you are looking for, you can get some good deals on eBay. ADAT machines look like they are going for pretty fair prices, too...

[Skywavebe]

Hi All,
Yes everyone has different experiences with these decks. The VHS had a much cheaper design in tape threading and I had to adjust many of them while in the service business. Then as I enter Pro video duplication I became aware of the JVC BR7000. These were great machines and I must have worked on thousands of them. In duplication they go for a week or two and then get cycled through the Maint. department for cleaning. We had 1500 of them in one room. The business was VCA Teletronics in Elk Grove Village. The largest problem I saw and it was with Mitsubishi were the bad switching adjustments for the audio. They cam in all over the place and that is when they had buzz in them. The higher end units that you show did not come in all that often but of my training at NEC the top end unit there was a model 8000 as well. The higher end Teac models were JVC with Teac face plates on them the lower end stuff was Funai. The Teac models were around the BR700 models in JVC. The Sony HiFi units were never in for audio problems in my experience and they usually repaired fast. Mitsubishi made some stuff with 3 year warranties but could never supply the parts.
I can remember one guy waiting 6 months for his TV tuner- some warranty!
Sam,