VHS?

[Thatch]

My neighbor is an Audio Visual pro and I think he is going to be getting rid of some real high quality pro gear VHS machines. I understand that you can do very good recordings on VHS tape and was wondering if anyone is using this format for audiophile recordings.

If he is going to get rid of the 4 machines he has out on the floor I am going to grab them. They are Panasonics and the size of the Mark 1 top loaders that first came out but these have the balanced inputs, lots of controls and would hook up to a mixing board.

I remember hearing in the 80s that you could get digital quality recordings and playback on VHS with the right machines. I don't know if it was an Urban Myth or true. So which is it? Let me know. If there is one there might be some extras. If I get them I will post all the details. Thanks,
Thatch

[Elite-ist]

Hi Thatch,

I was one of those who used to record onto VHS tape from CD with my Mitsubishi hifi VCR. Back then my VCR cost $1,100. It's hard to imagine someone would pay that much for a consumer deck, but I wanted it. There are threads dedicated to this subject, if you look on page 3 of this sub-forum. I, also, recorded a particular radio broadcast on the EP setting for archival purposes.

Nando.

[vinyldavid]

Post the names and model numbers of the decks, please. I might be able to tell you a bit about them after asking a pro video engineer friend.

[Warped Bezel]

Some commercial TV stations (and public stations as well) did simulcasting with FM stations on certain groundbreaking stereo video programs. Being that this was for the most part even prior to early VHS stereo decks with Dolby B on linear audio tracks and also Laserdiscs...

What were the dominant and other methods of creating a stereo audio program for television and in which tape format?

[vinyldavid]

Betacam SP, U-Matic, U-Matic SP, SVHS (somewhat), 1" type C....basically nothing consumer video.

[Dangerman009]

Yes, Hi-Fi Stereo VCRs have excellent sound. I used to use them occasionally to record. It didn't have the analog sound, but it sounded very good to me.

[ffracer]

Yes, you could also take these decks and use an interface like a Technics PCM converter or a Sony PCM-F1 that had digital to audio converters (DAC) to record full digital audio only recordings.

The PCM converters use the whole video section of the VHS tape to recode digital audio. That's a lot of tape space, so resolution is high.

The DACs on these were pretty crude compared to today, so they may sound a little harsh.

[Lance Lawson]

I have several HiFi Stereo VHS machines. They do indeed produce excellent quality recordings and the bang for the buck of time vs tape price can't be beat. It dosn't sound like typical analog but it dosn't sound like digital either. I like the sound and I've made several VHS mix tapes that I turn on when I want music but can't tend the player to change tapes or flip sides.

[Dangerman009]

Listening to the hi-fi tracks I was hard-pressed to hear any difference at all between SP, LP or EP. They all sounded great. I liked SP because if something happened to a tape only a small part of it was damaged.

One time I even recorded a band on an early nineties Sanyo hi-fi stereo VHS VCR from Wal-Mart. That was a great machine! It even had on-screen programming. I wish I hadn't given it away. *bang*

[Pentium100]

Listening to the hi-fi tracks I was hard-pressed to hear any difference at all between SP, LP or EP.

The hi-fi tracks are very sensitive to mistracking, so with LP you are more likely to have problems when you play the tape on a different VCR.

[Dangerman009]

The hi-fi tracks are very sensitive to mistracking, so with LP you are more likely to have problems when you play the tape on a different VCR.

You are absolutely right. For best results a LP tape must be played back on the machine that recorded it.

[Lance Lawson]

You are absolutely right. For best results a LP tape must be played back on the machine that recorded it.

My two SONY HiFi VHS decks can play each other's tapes without issue. My older Mitisubishi (which is fantastic) Plays on the SONY SLH 81 just fine too.

[Skywavebe]

Hi Thatch,
I don't remember any Panasonic units that were top loader with Hi Fi audio sections but then I did not see all of their models. Most of the decks I worked on at VCA Teletronics were JVC 7000 machines. Top loader usually means the decks are of an older design. Some pictures would be helpful.
Parts might be an issue at this point. No good archiving or putting music on a format that has no parts for keeping them going. DAT is going to be reaching that soon yet people continue to think they will last forever.

[Dangerman009]

My two SONY HiFi VHS decks can play each other's tapes without issue. My older Mitisubishi (which is fantastic) Plays on the SONY SLH 81 just fine too.

I stand corrected. *embarrased*

[Lance Lawson]

I stand corrected. *embarrased*

However you are not entirely wrong. My RCA Stereo VHS will only play its own tapes. Playing other player's tapes causes the speed to shift constantly. My RCA is an early stereo VCR and not truly a HiFi unit. It does have a conventional dolby with it though. Audio quality is fair.

[Dangerman009]

My RCA is an early stereo VCR and not truly a HiFi unit. It does have a conventional dolby with it though. Audio quality is fair.

So it has stereo linear tracks? That's interesting.

Taking the helical scan heads and VCR's tape speed into account, what is the equivalent tape speed on the Hi-Fi tracks?

[Pentium100]

So it has stereo linear tracks? That's interesting.

Taking the helical scan heads and VCR's tape speed into account, what is the equivalent tape speed on the Hi-Fi tracks?

The drum is 62mm in diameter and rotates at 25Hz (once per frame), so the linear speed would be 3.14*62mm*25Hz = 4.87m/s.

However, the hi-fi tracks are recorded using FM (like video) so, there is no need for bias adjustments.

[Lance Lawson]

So it has stereo linear tracks? That's interesting.

Taking the helical scan heads and VCR's tape speed into account, what is the equivalent tape speed on the Hi-Fi tracks?

I read that VHS has the equivalent of something like 81ips due to the high speed rotating head. I should hook up my RCA and see how it compares to standard analog.

[Warped Bezel]

So it has stereo linear tracks? That's interesting.

Taking the helical scan heads and VCR's tape speed into account, what is the equivalent tape speed on the Hi-Fi tracks?

The Hi-Fi audio is recorded by a layering process, so to speak. The audio is laid down then the video, as best as I can explain it. There is still a provision for reading the linear track(s) but I'm not sure that most later decks will record the linear tracks, only play them back.

I used to try recording audio only on the Hi-Fi tracks on my old RCA VCR and other than adapting to the flying record/edit timing (not really going to happen, just space well). I liked the sound well.

I had the Cocteau Twins' Heaven Or Las Vegas CD so I was spoiled ROTTEN for test audio! OH, ELIZABETH!

[Warped Bezel]

However you are not entirely wrong. My RCA Stereo VHS will only play its own tapes. Playing other player's tapes causes the speed to shift constantly. My RCA is an early stereo VCR and not truly a HiFi unit. It does have a conventional dolby with it though. Audio quality is fair.

I would suggest the tracking is slightly off and your other decks are not able to lock on in APC and stabilize the tracking.

This is a commom VHS problen AFAIK. Does your indexing suffer as well?

A drum that is worn/has one or more bad heads, bad belts or a faulty tracking system would probably exhibit such problem.

The VHS standard is a strict one and licensees certainly would not be allowed to sell products that undermine that standard. While it IS true that VHS makers introduced so many changes and innovations to the system I would think JVC watched and made certain they did not destroy the compatibility and usefulness. The PCM audio decks, what few existed were were introduced by Technics and the later D series digital video were modified forms (which sold terribly well).

So, from experience with bad tracking I would have to say that it's that deck or also that not all decks track well without video as no tracking causes the deck to look for the signal. The timer will not advance until a good signal is restored and it's hard to get the tape to advance at normal speed until you fast forward or rewind. All playback and search functions rely on a good signal.

[Dangerman009]

There is still a provision for reading the linear track(s) but I'm not sure that most later decks will record the linear tracks, only play them back.

It was my understanding that the linear track is recorded in a different area of the tape than the video/hifi track. I think most VCRs, even Hi-Fi models, recorded a linear track as a backup should there be bad tracking on the Hi-Fi tracks. On tapes recorded on other machines or on damaged tapes it isn't uncommon (in my limited experience) to hear the change from the Hi-Fi track to the linear track and back once tracking has been restored.

[Warped Bezel]

It was my understanding that the linear track is recorded in a different area of the tape than the video/hifi track. I think most VCRs, even Hi-Fi models, recorded a linear track as a backup should there be bad tracking on the Hi-Fi tracks. On tapes recorded on other machines or on damaged tapes it isn't uncommon (in my limited experience) to hear the change from the Hi-Fi track to the linear track and back once tracking has been restored.

Because the audio and video signals effectively share the space the presence of interference or dropout can affect the audio as well as video. The linear tracks are recorded at the bottom edge, similar to a film soundtrack. The are narrow as a cassette's tracks, possibly narrower which is why the Dolby was necessary with stereo sound. Even so they are rather woeful when compared to the Hi-Fi system.

It was a really ingenious invention and was possibly the biggest or 2nd worst nail in Betamaxes' coffin...they came out with Hi-Fi last.

As I posted not long ago the Beta and and VHS systems actually play sound of the linear track area virtually the same! Switch a Beta tape into a VHS shell and you will have NO VIDEO, YES AUDIO.

[Bob Boyer]

Out of curiosity, do you have to lay down black on the video track to get them to record audio? That's been my experience with a Hi-8 deck, but it was specifically designed Sony for working with computer video editing systems.

If not, I've got a nice old low-hours Sony Hi-Fi VCR sitting around here that might be fun to play with...

[Warped Bezel]

That I no not know for certain. My RCA dexk specifically mentioned that it could handle no video and tape audio and it was made somewhere around 1995 and also made it through "Y2K" without incident. I assume that the video muting circuit that blanks the screen with a blue screen might have some to do about that and it's been 15 years since I tried it.

[Lance Lawson]

That I no not know for certain. My RCA dexk specifically mentioned that it could handle no video and tape audio and it was made somewhere around 1995 and also made it through "Y2K" without incident. I assume that the video muting circuit that blanks the screen with a blue screen might have some to do about that and it's been 15 years since I tried it.

My RCA was made in 1983 or therabouts. I just finished recording some CD music onto the RCA and while it did the job it simply can't compare to the later Hi Fi VHS. I'm noticing that the right channel has some minor dropouts but the tape I'm using is a little tired. In any event this unit can't compete with even average cassette.

[Dangerman009]

...do you have to lay down black on the video track to get them to record audio?

I've never had to. If there is no video input I think it just records a black picture.

[Warped Bezel]

The drum is 62mm in diameter and rotates at 25Hz (once per frame), so the linear speed would be 3.14*62mm*25Hz = 4.87m/s.

However, the hi-fi tracks are recorded using FM (like video) so, there is no need for bias adjustments.

Don't forget that the US and a great deal of a small part of a strange planet scan at 30 fps...

[Pentium100]

I've never had to. If there is no video input I think it just records a black picture.

Depends on the VCR. Some synchronize to the incoming video signal,so if there is no video, you won't get Hi-Fi audio either. One of my VCRs cannot record without video and also cannot play Hi-Fi audio on audio-only tapes.

Don't forget that the US and a great deal of a small part of a strange planet scan at 30 fps...

Well, if you were calculating it, you would have used 30fps. (also, IMO 25fps is better).

[Warped Bezel]

Depends on the VCR. Some synchronize to the incoming video signal,so if there is no video, you won't get Hi-Fi audio either. One of my VCRs cannot record without video and also cannot play Hi-Fi audio on audio-only tapes.

Well, if you were calculating it, you would have used 30fps. (also, IMO 25fps is better).

Mr. Baird and Mr. Marconi thought so as did Pathe...little did theu realize that the scan lines rolling down the screen looked so cool/techy to 20th century viewers.

[Pentium100]

Mr. Baird and Mr. Marconi thought so as did Pathe...little did theu realize that the scan lines rolling down the screen looked so cool/techy to 20th century viewers.

25fps, or PAL/SECAM is better than NTSC for two reasons: 1) higher resolution (576i vs 480i) and 2) needs less VHS tape to record (a tape that fits 3 hours of NTSC recording, fits a bit over 4 hours of PAL recording). :)

[Lowtone]

I'm not sure that most later decks will record the linear tracks, only play them back.
Even the last VHS can play & record onto linera mono.
My Samsung from 2005 has hi-fi stéréo and linear mono. It allows the tape to be played in an older deck without stereo.
On some dekcs you can erase the linear track and record another thing on it, while leaving another recording on hi-fi stéréo. Like music on stéréo and speaking on the mono soundtrack.

http://artsites.ucsc.edu/EMS/music/equipment/video/smpte/SMPTE3.gif
All VHS decks can play the mono linear track. Some has stereo linear, wich is not hi-fi.
The hi-fi tracks are "under" the video tracks *hypnot* , and the quality of hi-fi stereo is really good.

For the picture, VHS is nice in PAL, but very ugly in SéCAM. In SéCAM the picture is red and blurry and just ugly *bang*
You can belive me, I live in the country of SéCAM *headache* all my recordings are just awful !
I thought it was a VHS drawback, but in 96 I bought a camcorder in PAL, and copy tapes on VHS PAL, It has great quality, and the pictures are still nice even today ! *Hi5*

But if you want a good picture to go with good sound, try the SVHS.
VHS can record ~250 line, but SVHS is up to 400 ! And it is hard to see the difference beetween a recording and analog TV. The quality is "near DVD".
On SVHS the sound works the same way as VHS does. hi-fi stéréo and linear mono *Hi5* and it can play standard VHS.

[Warped Bezel]

PAL is like NTSC in many aspects (it alternates the phase of each line, hence the acronym PAL). SECAM is a beast all it's own. Are there no affordable multi-standard VCRs, television tuners or receivers available to you? Sony has always tended to make nice ones and there are others.

Thank you so much for posting the technical information, it was very useful.

[Thatch]

I'll post if I can get more info. He is out of town right now and I saw these 4 huge pro gear Panasonics on the floor of his office/studio when I was taking the mail in. His wife is back and I might ask her. If he wants to get rid of them I might be able to snag one to play with. I think there were about 8 of those 3 hole balanced inputs, lots of knobs and at least 2 meters. Basic color is cream. But I think he is culling gear and tossed out a couple of big VCRs about 2 years back but someone else grabbed them, probably got a couple of rocks to smoke if you know what I mean.

[Thatch]

My understanding that it was like using dig tape, which I have never heard, but you can still get VHS tape so it might be fun to play with for the price of the tape.

Thatch

[Dangerman009]

You know, you could also get one of those PCM converters and record 16/44.1 PCM stereo on the video track and the hi-fi stereo tracks at the same time!