A Bad Break For RMGI LPR35

[Des-Lab]

This is an update that some of you may find interesting. If any of you have similar issues, I'd love to hear about them.

Anyway, this is an update on the sole remaining production Long Play 1.0 mil tape, the RMGI LPR35.

Right now. I'm not a happy camper with this tape. An ongoing concern with the new tapes seems to revolve around the slitting and subsequent shedding with them. Well todays findings take it a step further. For several months now, I have been experiencing some chronic right channel dropout with this tape and what I concur appears to be excessive shedding.

This is the exact same specimen roll I used when I evaluated this tape (http://www.tapeheads.net/showthread.php?t=4)a few years ago. Not another one from the same case or subsequent purchase, but the same actual tape. It's fully recorded and has been played numerous times. So this isn't a case of "breaking in" a new tape; the one in question has been thoroughly ran in on the same deck.

For about the past six months to a year, when playing this tape, I've been noticing that the right channel has been intermittently dropping out. Not the wow and flutter that's consistent of a chewed or severely worn tape, but an ongoing dulled and muffled sound. The left channel remains clear, crisp, and bright whereas the right is registering several dB lower and sounds as though I'm listening through cotton. Or like someone is running it through an equalizer with the treble band(s) turned completely down. This as you can imagine, has a profound effect on the imaging and apparent phasing: during a good playback, if you are listening to a properly phased signal, and stand an equal distance apart from the speakers, the sound will have the effect of appearing to originate from a point directly in front of you.

This tape isn't doing that. Standing equidistant from the speakers and the balance point source appears to be coming from about three-quarters of the way to the left. Like the balance has been skewed 75% left dominant.

Frustrated, I stopped the tape and examined it and the heads. First, there are two bands or grooves in the surface of the tape that's also leaving a matching pair of oxide rings on the idler wheel. (see second pic). Next, I noticed a small amount of oxide shavings underneath the head stack (see third pic-you can clearly see the shavings on the pitch control knob at the 10 and 11 o'clock positions).

And finally look at ONE Q-tip yielded.

Now in a case like this, the first and most logical suspect would be: worn heads. Certainly my in-service X-2000R does now have a detectable wear pattern, but it's still very small. But that theory has just one hole in it:

No other (Maxell or Quantegy) tapes exhibit any of this behavior: no mistracking, shedding, mysterious lines or anything. Like I said. What I'm reporting today is not new. I only finally decided to report it because this tape is getting worse and worse. Inititally, it started at about the half to two-thirds point on Side 2 only. Now, it's started at about the one-third point and has progressed all the way through the remaining length. and like I said: subsequent tapes played have performed with no issues whatsoever.

Not a good sign.

[Pentium100]

СВЕМА Б-3715 Leaves more oxide, but it does it more or less evenly over the width of the tape, so it does not affect the sound (well, not that I can hear it) even though I have played some tapes many times.

Then again, for a tape that costs 8-20 times as much I would expect it to shed less, so I would have to clean the heads less often.

[Pacific Stereo]

This is definitely disturbing.

[Des-Lab]

No offense, but WTF is СВЕМА Б-3715 and how many of us here in the States and Canada would 1) be able to get it and 2) be willing to pay to take that chance?

[Nakdoc]

I wonder what causes the line or groove in photo 2? Are you thinking the binder was not evenly distributed in the oxide when the tape was manufactured? The right channel in a quarter track deck is towards the middle of the tape, about where the line appears. If the shedding was occurring in a narrow band, that would be definitely a tape problem. I assume side 2 plays ok?

[Pentium100]

No offense, but WTF is СВЕМА Б-3715 and how many of us here in the States and Canada would 1) be able to get it and 2) be willing to pay to take that chance?

It's one of tapes that was made in the USSR. Some people have big stashes of it and sell it quite cheaply even though it is no longer made. I have about 90 reels of this tape (550m each). I paid about 130EUR for all of them, so the price per tape is similar to that of cassettes.

Basically, in the USSR there were 3 factories that made tape - ТАСМА, СВЕМА and Славич. СВЕМА was about in the middle by its quality.

Anyway, other than the need to clean heads more often I saw no problems using the tapes for almost the entire time I was using a tape deck probably more than 14 years now. My old tapes sound OK (depends on how I used them and whether I placed a magnet near the tape when I was a kid), the tape deck still works etc.

As for the sound quality - now that I calibrated my Электроника-004 I can barely hear a difference (and only for some music) even at 9.5cm/s speed.

I simply cannot afford RMGI or ATR tapes to actually use them. So, I occasionally visit classified ad sites to look for USSR made tape since it is much cheaper.

[Lance Lawson]

OMG! This is the EXACT same problem I had trying to run RMGI 468 on my TEAC. In my case its the left channel that goes dull. If its a good recording and goes dull if I stop and clean the heads it goes back to normal. But no matter what the 2 reels of 468 that I managed to make good recordings on still leave lots of oxide and the little shaving bits continue. I have some new LPR-35 that I've recorded on for about 5 minutes just to get an impression and it was fine. But 5 minutes is hardly enough tome to actually determine the success of a tape.

OTOH my NOS Ampex 632 is sweet as can be clean and no dulling/dropouts. Now I'm very concerned that LPR-35 may be little improvement over the disappointment of the 468 I bought.

Well if Maxell won't give up new tape let's contact SONY and 3M. SONY SLH was nice stuff too!

[vinyldavid]

Have you tried a) another reel of this, b) another reel of this on another deck?

I find that lines like that are generally caused by a malfunctioning deck (much as I hate to suggest it) rather than malformed tape.....something has to be rubbing....

[Bob Boyer]

I've got three or four reels in service. No issues yet, but it's only been a year or so. The SM911 at the office is holding up fine to a lot more wear and tear than my LPR. Again, not much time on them, though.

[vidguy]

I've got 2 CASES of LPR35 on 10.5" reels, representing about $700.00.
If they go south on me, I'll be very, very....... upset. *mad*

[PioneerRT-2022]

Have you tried a) another reel of this, b) another reel of this on another deck?

I find that lines like that are generally caused by a malfunctioning deck (much as I hate to suggest it) rather than malformed tape.....something has to be rubbing....

I agree with Vinyldavid and with all due respect, but it looks like you are one of the few that are having problems with RMGI tapes and if not, well I would really like to see others with the same problems. If something was really wrong with these tapes you will see more people talking about it, that I can guarantee. I have been using all of the RMGI formulations for years and I’ve never had any problems, other than the normal shedding when you break in the tape. Are you sure that is an RMGI LPR35 tape?, because the reel in the picture looks like is not(six screws and the spokes are different); even though, it has a sticker, but that doesn’t prove it is an RMGI LPR35 either. I could be wrong and if I am please educate me on that but I’ve never seem an RMGI reel like that one before on a 1/4 inch at least. Just my *twocents*

[Warped Bezel]

I'm just confused and I don't know enough to understand...I'll state that the sticky shed thing was something I probably never needed to know and it's confused so many others I don't get it.

[Lance Lawson]

I agree with Vinyldavid and with all due respect, but it looks like you are one of the few that are having problems with RMGI tapes and if not, well I would really like to see others with the same problems. If something was really wrong with these tapes you will see more people talking about it, that I can guarantee. I have been using all of the RMGI formulations for years and I’ve never had any problems, other than the normal shedding when you break in the tape. Are you sure that is an RMGI LPR35 tape?, because the reel in the picture looks like is not(six screws and the spokes are different); even though, it has a sticker, but that doesn’t prove it is an RMGI LPR35 either. I could be wrong and if I am please educate me on that but I’ve never seem an RMGI reel like that one before on a 1/4 inch at least. Just my *twocents*

Well just read my post concerning 468 posts and my very similar issue with RMGI 468 and you'll see it's not as uncommon as it may seem. Just this evening for good measure I ran 600 feet of 468 on my TEAC and checked the heads guides and capstan after. All I can say is the 468 I have runs dirty (2 different batches from 10 months apart). 600 feet of 468 leaves as much oxide and other materials behind as 3000 feet of Ampex 632 or just about any other tape I've used. I'll be doing a serious test of my LPR-35 and if its problematic I'm going to buy a few cases of NOS Ampex and Quantegy 632 and call it day. Having to cross fingers hoping the tape will run without issue is a fantastic drag and not what enjoying these machines was ever intended to be all about.

[PioneerRT-2022]

Well just read my post concerning 468 posts and my very similar issue with RMGI 468 and you'll see it's not as uncommon as it may seem. Just this evening for good measure I ran 600 feet of 468 on my TEAC and checked the heads guides and capstan after. All I can say is the 468 I have runs dirty (2 different batches from 10 months apart). 600 feet of 468 leaves as much oxide and other materials behind as 3000 feet of Ampex 632 or just about any other tape I've used. I'll be doing a serious test of my LPR-35 and if its problematic I'm going to buy a few cases of NOS Ampex and Quantegy 632 and call it day. Having to cross fingers hoping the tape will run without issue is a fantastic drag and not what enjoying these machines was ever intended to be all about.



Like I always say, any particular tape could have issues for many reasons. In my case I have used the RMGI formulation for years and I have tried them in many different decks I have owned, like Teac X-1000R, Teac A3340S, Akai GX-635D and in my current Pioneer RT-2022 and 2044 decks and I never had any problems. Am I that lucky?

[Des-Lab]

I wonder what causes the line or groove in photo 2? Are you thinking the binder was not evenly distributed in the oxide when the tape was manufactured? The right channel in a quarter track deck is towards the middle of the tape, about where the line appears. If the shedding was occurring in a narrow band, that would be definitely a tape problem. I assume side 2 plays ok?

Actually "Side 2" has been the problem child. In the pictures, "Side 2" is playing and the tape was travelling forward (left to right).

Have you tried a) another reel of this, b) another reel of this on another deck?

I find that lines like that are generally caused by a malfunctioning deck (much as I hate to suggest it) rather than malformed tape.....something has to be rubbing....

I acknowledged that possibility in my OP. I have not done what you have suggested because of that nagging flaw in the theory: NO other tapes do this. Yes, I have add'l rolls of the stuff and I guess it wouldn't hurt to give it a try. However, I stand behind my assertion that this one lone roll has been problematic. If every tape I played shedded and/or developed lines like this, then yes. It would totally be an open and shut case of head/path wear.

I agree with Vinyldavid and with all due respect, but it looks like you are one of the few that are having problems with RMGI tapes and if not, well I would really like to see others with the same problems. If something was really wrong with these tapes you will see more people talking about it, that I can guarantee. I have been using all of the RMGI formulations for years and I’ve never had any problems, other than the normal shedding when you break in the tape. Are you sure that is an RMGI LPR35 tape?, because the reel in the picture looks like is not(six screws and the spokes are different); even though, it has a sticker, but that doesn’t prove it is an RMGI LPR35 either. I could be wrong and if I am please educate me on that but I’ve never seem an RMGI reel like that one before on a 1/4 inch at least. Just my *twocents*

See my response to David. And yes, that is a genuine bona fide roll of LPR35 tape. The reason the reel may look odd is because it's my own creation. If you follow the link above (also in the OP) where I did the original eval of the tape some time back, the discrepancy with the reel will become less of one and it will make sense.


I'm just confused and I don't know enough to understand...I'll state that the sticky shed thing was something I probably never needed to know and it's confused so many others I don't get it.

As far as I know, Sticky Shed is not applicable here. The tape is not (yet) squealing, slowing down, or gumming up the heads. There is a difference in the texture of the tape residue in the two situations if you know what you are looking for. SSS residue looks and feels like (sorry to sound gross but this is the closest match I can think of) ear wax. Tape scrape is a dry dusty powder like texture. What is unknown here is WHY there is evident scraping. A worn head, metal shaving, or stuck piece of oxide are, as David (and myself) have noted to be the most likely causes. But if there is a manufacturing defect, be it in the slitting, the binder, or coating, then that needs to be considered as well.

I guess like David suggested. In the interest of fairness and objectivity, the best course of action will be some cross checking: this tape on another machine, other tapes on this machine, and so forth. Then I'll report my findings. I'll try and have that ready by sometime next week.

[Skywavebe]

Well I have a couple of rolls of LPR35. I use them exclusively for tape deck alignment so they have to be good or out of the calibration section they go.
I have used them on many machines including X1000, X2000 and A6300, A2300SX, A2300SD and others as well and I have not had any dropouts, lack of response or irregularities that I could find. The critical test of a recording tape will be found in the calibration process as many deck are tested and have to record up to 25 KHz at 0 Vu. It is possible that you have gotten a bad batch and to be testing a tape that you already know is not correct is really a waste of time- it is like rubbing your eyes and hoping the problem goes away. I would get with RMGI and have them replace any and all rolls of proven bad tape. If I may suggest this avenue of confirmation, I would ship a couple of rolls of your bad tape to a Technician used to working on reel to reel equipment and have a independent evaluation done that is opposite you machines and with a entirely different set up to get additional results.
I did have a guy bring me a well worn roll of SM900 which I did confirm that was bad but not having the history of this tape nor the receipt of sale, I could not get the tape replaced for the guy at my end. In fact I don't think he bought it new but the guy before him. I gave it back to the owner and I don't know what happened to it after that. Tapes are not indestructible and they have a a finite life if cared for. It is just that with our typical use we don't get to that but some people that are musicians might. I think the machine it came with was a Tascam 52.

[Des-Lab]

One other thing I forgot to point out that makes me skeptical of the "worn head" theory is the location of the mysterious line. Notice how it's off the centerline. That means it's highly unlikely that whatever is causing it is something fixed and stationary. Since this tape is recorded in quarter track, and therefore gets played in both directions (on the same deck without using reverse), one could reason that the "other side" would have a matching well defined trail if it in fact is being caused by a bad head or pin.

[Lance Lawson]

One other thing I forgot to point out that makes me skeptical of the "worn head" theory is the location of the mysterious line. Notice how it's off the centerline. That means it's highly unlikely that whatever is causing it is something fixed and stationary. Since this tape is recorded in quarter track, and therefore gets played in both directions (on the same deck without using reverse), one could reason that the "other side" would have a matching well defined trail if it in fact is being caused by a bad head or pin.

I agree a worn head or otherwise compromised transport would have been damaging all the tape you've run through it.

[Des-Lab]

Cross checks in progress.

Y'all aint gonna like my findings so far. Especially if you have a vested interest in this stuff. So far we are shaping up for an epic failure. There may be one last chance for this tape to redeem itself pending the final parameter test. But as of now, it's a grim picture.

Full report to come.

[vidguy]

Cross checks in progress.

Y'all aint gonna like my findings so far. Especially if you have a vested interest in this stuff. So far we are shaping up for an epic failure. There may be one last chance for this tape to redeem itself pending the final parameter test. But as of now, it's a grim picture.

Full report to come.

1 person, an epic failure does not make.

While you have considerable knowledge and devotion to the subject, don't you find it a wee bit arrogant that we should consider your observations to be the FINAL word as to the worthiness of this tape?!?

A little humility would be in order. You have experienced a problem, with 1 roll of tape. Yet that translates into the downfall of an entire brand?!?
Perhaps you need some perspective, modify your statements with words like "possibly", "maybe", "In my case", ect..

You so far, are the only one reporting this problem publicly.
Yes, I'm sure it's disconcerting for you, and for me, as I have a vested interest, considering I own 2 cases of the stuff.



However, I'm not about to wait for the "sky to fall" over 1 or 2 "bad" reels.

[Des-Lab]

1 person, an epic failure does not make.

Maybe not, but I can't see how anyone can argue that what happened to that one tape isn't one.

While you have considerable knowledge and devotion to the subject, don't you find it a wee bit arrogant that we should consider your observations to be the FINAL word as to the worthiness of this tape?!?

I am simply reporting my findings and my opinions coupled with personal recommendations. I am leaving it up to everyone else to weigh it all and decide for themselves how they wish to respond.

A little humility would be in order. You have experienced a problem, with 1 roll of tape. Yet that translates into the downfall of an entire brand?!?

You're not seeing the bigger picture here. A lot of people have accused me of engaging in a crusade to "bring down" this brand. You need to understand that 1) that's not what my agenda is, 2) I would stand to gain exactly nothing from doing so, and 3) I think a lot of these people are in denial. We are all excited to see new tape still being made in 2011 and the thought of it possibly being subpar is a thought they don't want to come to terms with. Hence it makes better sense to attack the person reporting the findings instead of trying to refute the actual findings. It's not unlike the "defense" in a court trial: if you can discredit an opposing witness, you can, by default, discredit the witnesses findings. And frankly, that's what I think a lot of people are trying to do. (it worked in the OJ and Rodney King trials. Why not here?) Hey. I'm being accused of sinister motives. It sucks when it's thrown right back at you, doesn't it?

Seriously.

And finally, I don't think that you understand the significance of this. Yes, it's one random roll. But in a sampling of that size, what does that translate to in terms of defect rate as a whole? One roll in a thousand? One in a hundred? One out of two? Like it or not, these possibilities have to be taken into consideration.

Perhaps you need some perspective, modify your statements with words like "possibly", "maybe", "In my case", ect..

Been doing that all along.

You so far, are the only one reporting this problem publicly.
Yes, I'm sure it's disconcerting for you, and for me, as I have a vested interest, considering I own 2 cases of the stuff.

Actually I've already seen and read at least two other instances of similar incidents. So it's not just limited to me. We still don't know how widespread or not this is. And as my findings have shown-this may not be something that's visible right away; a new tape WILL perform just fine in the beginning and at least for awhile. What's scary here is that is is only showing up four years and a hundred plays down the road. If you have purchased these and do not expect to get frequent use out of them, this may not even have the potential to affect you at all.

However, I feel it is my duty to pass along information that may be of interest to other members. Both good and bad. And as I've stated in other discussions, the only thing worse than reporting areas of concern is NOT reporting them (i.e. a coverup) and then risk the possibility of more problems down the road for other people who could've been given the chance to make an informed decision, decide for themselves and then either take the risk or avert it altogether. When you look at this from where I stand, it's a no-win situation: if I report it, I have an ulterior motive to bring down a brand. If I don't report it, then I'm not doing my job.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be any problems like this to report, rendering all of this moot. Sadly, that's not the case.


However, I'm not about to wait for the "sky to fall" over 1 or 2 "bad" reels.

Like I said. I am reporting the findings. What you do with them and the course of action you take is entirely up to you.

[PioneerRT-2022]

"You so far, are the only one reporting this problem publicly.
Yes, I'm sure it's disconcerting for you, and for me, as I have a vested interest, considering I own 2 cases of the stuff.

However, I'm not about to wait for the "sky to fall" over 1 or 2 "bad" reels."


__________________________________________________ _______________


I couldn’t agree more. I am still waiting for more people with the same issues. I think it is just a bad reel, it happens and testing the same bad reel over, over and over again; waiting for some miracle, is not going to change anything.

How are we going to know for sure if these tapes(RMGI formulations)are going to last 30 or more years without problems if we haven’t got there yet, but for now they are being more than good to me. I am grateful to have a company that is still making new tapes and that is keeping analog alive, I support them 100%

I prefer to buy new RMGI tapes than 30 year old Maxell tapes. If only Maxell tapes were better, but in my opinion they are NOT and they didn’t care to make more. Maxell pretty much forgot about us, so why support the brand. Just my 2 bucks( I am beyond cents already)



.

[Eminence1963]

I am simply reporting my findings and my opinions coupled with personal recommendations. I am leaving it up to everyone else to weigh it all and decide for themselves how they wish to respond.

Ok Des for all of the nay sayers on this board about your findings on that one particular tape. What about you do another battery of test on another tape just like the one you did on that one tape?
Maybe that will convince them*scratchchin*

Im not gonna spend my hard earned dollars on bad tape. Even if they are the only ones who make tape. And they are not the only one making tape still....*wave*

I just recently aquired some of that tape on 5 inch reels and got the same results u did on side 2 of the tape as well. Now granted I did not spend a fortune on that tape but dollars is dollars. And after what you just wrote up on that tape, long term it might just not hold up like u say it wont.
Guess only time will tell.*dunno*

[PioneerRT-2022]

I just made a youtube video testing a New LPR35 in 5" plastic reel. The video is in high definition and it is uploading as we speak. It looks like is going to take a while because it is more than 2GB and the uploading process is slower when uploading that much data. I will post a link right after the video is ready(probably tomorrow). All I can say is that it didn’t disappoint me. I am very sorry that others are having problems with these tapes; but I am not having any, like I have said before. *bigthumbup* Am I that lucky?

This is a very expensive hobby, and a complicated one sometimes and the prices on new and old reels are not making it any easier, but if you like this, you have to be ready to get a bad reel here and there, like everything in this world. You want perfection, good luck then. Analog is perfect enough for me. *beer*.



.

[Lance Lawson]

All I want is reliable tape that runs in my machine. I don't care if it comes from China I don't care if it comes from Cuba or Russia, Holland, Canada, Bolivia or Wisconsin or Pennsylvania. It just has to work consistently and have a lifespan of a couple of decades. Since in a couple of decades I'll have returned to the ecosystem or I'll be too stone deaf or infirm to care about recording tape. This perhaps is the audience that tape is playing to at this point anyway I think.

Yet within that frame of time given the advances that materials, chemistry and process have made the tapes of today should be able to endure for as many decades as the tapes of the 1950's and 60's.

As I see it the art of tape making shot itself in the foot with the introduction of back coating because that's when the real trouble started. If it were left up to me I'd make a first class tape and leave the the back coating off. Great recordings were made before the introduction of back coating and great recordings are still being made on those stocks of non back coated tape that turns up every now and then.

So maybe everyone is simply trying to hard and given the issues of most of the back coated tapes of old it could be an avenue that never was universally perfected when it was in mass productions.

[Des-Lab]

Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is made up.


It's a time honored truism of politcs. Why not here? Once again, some folks here are just not listening to reason. For instance: accusations that I'm repeatedly testing the same tape over and over and miraculously hoping for a spontaneous cure. What kind of pedestrian, idiotic, and head-up-your-ass statement is that? Where did I *EVER* even give the impression that that's what I was doing?

The tape in question was formally tested exactly ONE time for trouble (twice if you count the original evaluation from when it was new). The closest I've come to a serial repetition pattern has been reporting the escalating concerns that finally culminated in the test. Which was followed up with a battery of cross checks that were done at the suggestion of other members. The idea that I am taking a tape that's confirmed to be defective and continuing to subject it to a litany of tests in the hope of a cure is asinine and ludicrous. That's like suggesting someone repeatedly attempting to power a light bulb that's burned out in the hopes that it will somehow again re-illuminate.

If anything, I should be commended for performing repeat and follow up evaluations. It means I want to be certain of the findings and rule out all other possible causes. That's not insanity. That's called being prudent and taking all variables into account and ruling them out through process of elimination. In other words, an actual process with some methodical thought and reasoning put into it.

And now a follow up test (of my making) using not the original problem tape, but the unused specimen is now in the works. Results will be posted in a few days.

I'm sorry to finally explode and come off sounding like a boorish pompous ass, but the stupidity I've read in some of these responses just beggars the imagination. Clearly some folks are either conveniently leaving some facts out of their conclusions, twisting and taking my findings out of context, and of course, outright inventing conclusions of their own that have no bearing whatsoever on the subject at hand.

-Hence the opening line in this reply.

[RedGrant]

It's not unlike the "defense" in a court trial: if you can discredit an opposing witness, you can, by default, discredit the witnesses findings. And frankly, that's what I think a lot of people are trying to do. (it worked in the OJ and Rodney King trials. Why not here?) Hey. I'm being accused of sinister motives. It sucks when it's thrown right back at you, doesn't it?

One way to know you have them against the wall is when they start attacking your motives, instead of evidences.

[PioneerRT-2022]

Here is the test I made with a brand new RMGI LPR35 in 5" plastic reel. Youtube decided to disable the audio due to some copyright BS (bummer ), not my fault.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v= (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sc5tg3IyDk)

It was a track from Fleetwood Mack, but I guess that it is not that important in this case. As you can see in the VU meters the output is lower than the input and it is because this machine is calibrated for the SM900; which it a way higher output tape, so is to be expected. No dropouts, steady output and no visible shedding; although, a little bit of shedding is to be expected with RMGI tapes in the first couple of passes.

Please understand that I did this as fast as possible, as I didn’t want to take too much time in testing a tape that I already know how it was going to perform, but I wanted to let others know that I am not having problems with this tape. The stain in the capstan was there since I got this machine and doesn’t go away and the pinch roller, well I haven’t clean it in while, I just get lazy sometimes.

Sorry the video is kind of rough and far from perfect( thanks to youtube), but it is not easy to do this on my own without any interruptions. I wanted to this video without stopping, I don’t want clever minds to think that I stopped, clean the guides, heads, etc and then record again.

In order for us to know if these tapes are going to endure time and playback repetition, we don’t have any other choice than to wait and see. They may not be perfect, but they are excellent in my personal opinion.




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