Anyone recorded a harmonica group before?

[vinyldavid]

I have just been asked if I would like to try to record a harmonica group, as their last recording attempt was a complete disaster.

Master recorder would be my Teac A-3340S. Or possibly my Akai GX912. Or both, in combination so that I can have a copy I can play over and over and easily dub while having the reel to source the CD for.

Mixer would be my Yamaha EMX2300 or Tascam M30, depending on if I need phantom power or not. I might try to figure out how to build a phantom supply for the Tascam. (Jay Pemberton, did'nt you do this?)

They have some vocal mics, and I might be able to source most anything else.

I am thinking that I will just try the decca tree and see what happens.

Have you guys got any suggestions?

Another of my ideas is to group each of the three sections together (lead, harmony and bass/chord) in a semicircle and place 2 mikes above each, and then record that way...

I have heard that Mercury Living Presence was all recorded with the decca tree, and those are amazing recordings....

[Rex Everything]

I guess experience is great but the harmonica is the absolute worst thing around and I'd almost rather shoot myself than be around a group playing them :D

[no1maestro]

David,

The Mercury arrangement was similar to the Decca but the spacing was greater and the types of mikes varied somewhat. The basic idea was similar.

I worked telethons with a group called the Harmonica Rascals and I could take about ten minutes before I called it quits. lol Rex has it right.

Your best bet is to keep them together so that they can do their own balancing and fly mikes overhead to get their best blend, If you have another channel and mike availiable, use it to get the ambient feel of the room.

Good luck!!

[Jay Pemberton]

David, you might try a pair of cardioid condenser mikes in an XY configuration, at average mouths height aimed straight at them, with them grouped in a semicircle about 3 feet from the mikes. (Yes indeed, I built a phantom power supply for the M30 mixer!)

Give me a day or so, I'll think up some more ideas....

[vinyldavid]

I guess experience is great but the harmonica is the absolute worst thing around and I'd almost rather shoot myself than be around a group playing them :D

HAHAHAHAHAHA......I know what you mean, but being exposed to it from 8 on up, you SOMETIMES get used to it....

David,

The Mercury arrangement was similar to the Decca but the spacing was greater and the types of mikes varied somewhat. The basic idea was similar.

I worked telethons with a group called the Harmonica Rascals and I could take about ten minutes before I called it quits. lol Rex has it right.

Your best bet is to keep them together so that they can do their own balancing and fly mikes overhead to get their best blend, If you have another channel and mike available, use it to get the ambient feel of the room.

Good luck!!

I can get 18 microphone inputs, spread between my 2 mixers, with 2 channels of one run into the other. if need be, I can add the 2 on my Teac.


From what you say, ideally I would get 9 mikes, and have 3 per section (lead, harmony, bass), and then a couple farfield mikes for the room sound.....

I think that's doable. Sound reasonable?

As usual, I would have to play around, and that's the fun of it.

David, you might try a pair of cardioid condenser mikes in an XY configuration, at average mouths height aimed straight at them, with them grouped in a semicircle about 3 feet from the mikes. (Yes indeed, I built a phantom power supply for the M30 mixer!)

Give me a day or so, I'll think up some more ideas....
Thanks!

is the phantom supply easy to build?

[Jay Pemberton]

From what you say, ideally I would get 9 mikes, and have 3 per section (lead, harmony, bass), and then a couple farfield mikes for the room sound.....

I think that's doable. Sound reasonable? I'd say that's major overkill. How many people are in the group, and how large of a room are you recording them in? Or is it the room where you did the dulcimer videos with Lexi?

If, say, there's 9 players--three per section--I'd go with three mikes, three players per mike, the three of each section arranged in a semicircle around their respective mikes, about a foot to 18 inches away from them. This would give a good balance of close-up crispness whilst allowing a good blending of the three instruments, and a lessening of both mechanical and mouth/breathing noises and also a lessening of volume level jumps and other odd effects often heard when someone plays a harmonica literally right against a mike.

You'd end up with a nice three track tape from which to make a nice stereo mix (I'd reckon lead in the centre, harmony left, basses right).

Is the phantom supply easy to build?

Yes, it is. Not terribly expensive either--well under $50....perhaps $35 tops.

[TheReeler]

If you need a phantom supply for just ONE mic, I've this one and works OK:

http://www.alfasoni.com/articulos_grande/PS400.jpg

Behringer PS400 phantom power supply. If has a switch for 12 or 48 V.

I use it with a Sony ECM-NV1.

[vinyldavid]

I'd say that's major overkill. How many people are in the group, and how large of a room are you recording them in? Or is it the room where you did the dulcimer videos with Lexi?

If, say, there's 9 players--three per section--I'd go with three mikes, three players per mike, the three of each section arranged in a semicircle around their respective mikes, about a foot to 18 inches away from them. This would give a good balance of close-up crispness whilst allowing a good blending of the three instruments, and a lessening of both mechanical and mouth/breathing noises and also a lessening of volume level jumps and other odd effects often heard when someone plays a harmonica literally right against a mike.

You'd end up with a nice three track tape from which to make a nice stereo mix (I'd reckon lead in the centre, harmony left, basses right).



Yes, it is. Not terribly expensive either--well under $50....perhaps $35 tops.

I don't think it's overkill....not at all!

In their live setups:

There's a bass, a chord, about 5 harmony and about the same lead....I dunno what kinda numbers I would be looking at to record.

Here's a little television piece that was done on them a while back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYpV0048Iak&feature=related

And I have no idea what the room would be....

And this is still just a possibility, as one of the members is a very good friend of mine, and has been consistently disappointed with the quality of the recordings, and knows that I love audio, and figured that I might be able to do a better job.

I am just trying to get some ideas together to have if I am asked what I am planning on doing, and what would be necessary.

[Jay Pemberton]

I was totally guessing 'in the dark' when I'd said that about the three mikes. One thing I'd do is try to get some of the recordings they didn't like, and try to find out how they were recorded. Good info there, so you have an idea what not to do. (By the way, I've never recorded a harmonica group either!)

Seeing that YT piece, I'd have a go at using perhaps some of their chest-worn mikes for 'spotlights' as it were in addition to other mikes for those who don't. Two or three ambience mikes in a good hall will help too. And as many condenser mikes throughout as possible.

Here's mp3 dubs of that 1947 hit record by The Harmonicats they mention in the piece, dubbed by me (with EQ from the hot-rodded M 30!) off my 78 rpm copy, on Vitacoustic 1:

'Peg o' my heart' (http://www.mediafire.com/?autjinidtf5)

'Fantasie impromptu' (http://www.mediafire.com/?nizpm13ndc9)

The flip side is a jazzed-up arrangement of a Chopin piano piece. Both sides were recorded at Universal Recording in Chicago and produced and engineered by Bill Putnam (who later founded the pro audio company UREI and built United Studios and Western Recorders in Hollywood.)

[vinyldavid]

I was totally guessing 'in the dark' when I'd said that about the three mikes. One thing I'd do is try to get some of the recordings they didn't like, and try to find out how they were recorded. Good info there, so you have an idea what not to do. (By the way, I've never recorded a harmonica group either!)

Seeing that YT piece, I'd have a go at using perhaps some of their chest-worn mikes for 'spotlights' as it were in addition to other mikes for those who don't. Two or three ambience mikes in a good hall will help too. And as many condenser mikes throughout as possible.

Here's mp3 dubs of that 1947 hit record by The Harmonicats they mention in the piece, dubbed by me (with EQ from the hot-rodded M 30!) off my 78 rpm copy, on Vitacoustic 1:

'Peg o' my heart' (http://www.mediafire.com/?autjinidtf5)

'Fantasie impromptu' (http://www.mediafire.com/?nizpm13ndc9)

The flip side is a jazzed-up arrangement of a Chopin piano piece. Both sides were recorded at Universal Recording in Chicago and produced and engineered by Bill Putnam (who later founded the pro audio company UREI and built United Studios and Western Recorders in Hollywood.)

I can get hold of 8 or 9 vocal mikes of theirs to use, and one of the sons of one of the members has a equipment store that we can proly get stuff from.

I was already planning on running the bass chest mic in, and doing that mono.

And I have the original Peg O My Heart 78 here, too....

And I know how the one that REALLY sucks was recorded....

3 takes.

One for the harmony, one for the lead and one for the bass and chord...or maybe 4 takes. And then the recordist put them all together. Sonically it's a jumble, and it was just done wrong. And the multitrack.....just not right. NO ONE liked the results.

None of their recordings have been well done, I don't think....

[Jay Pemberton]

I see. So whoever did that bad one, tried to do them a section at a time, with lots of overdubbing, when they needed to be recorded performing live (in a studio or otherwise). I just wish I was there to help out, learn a few things, bring the Neumann mikes and things too....

[vinyldavid]

I see. So whoever did that bad one, tried to do them a section at a time, with lots of overdubbing, when they needed to be recorded performing live (in a studio or otherwise). I just wish I was there to help out, learn a few things, bring the Neumann mikes and things too....

Me too!

That would definitely be a fun day of recording.

And Neumanns...........*eyepop**hearts*

[Jay Pemberton]

You can hear what they sound like in the 'before and after' thread I started....