A question regarding MiniDisc.

[Akai man.]

Like many others I bought a Sony MiniDisc deck years ago, used it until the novelty wore off, then rarely used it after that. I've recently started using it again and have bought a personal MiniDisc player (not a recorder) as MP3 doesn't interest me at all. My question is, if a personal MiniDisc recorder is connected to a CD player using a digital optical cable and a CD copy made, will the copy be the same or as good as a copy made on a full sized MiniDisc deck ?

My full sized deck is a Sony MDS-JE510 and I'm considering buying a Sony MZ-R501 personal recorder/player.


All replies gratefully received.

Geoff.

[R.Daneel]

The short answer is, no it won't. Portable minidisc recorders, like all portable devices, are limited in that they use battery as a power source and therefore battery efficiency has to be taken into account during design. An MDS-JE510, even though an Atrac type 4.5 will make better recordings. But, the MZ-R501 is a type-R machine so it will undoubtedly sound very fine.

[thinkzinc]

Like many others I bought a Sony MiniDisc deck years ago, used it until the novelty wore off, then rarely used it after that. I've recently started using it again and have bought a personal MiniDisc player (not a recorder) as MP3 doesn't interest me at all. My question is, if a personal MiniDisc recorder is connected to a CD player using a digital optical cable and a CD copy made, will the copy be the same or as good as a copy made on a full sized MiniDisc deck ?

My full sided deck a Sony MDS-JE510 and I'm considering buying a Sony MZ-R501 personal recorder/player.


All replies gratefully received.

Geoff.

I have made many digital-to-digital recordings with my minidisc decks (both have Type R) and with portable recorders (which also have Type R) and the recordings are virtually indistinguishable. The difference IMO is that the decks have better playback electronics. If you are going to record analog, the decks are better because they have better analog-to-digital converters.

The MZ-R501 is a very good looking unit. Have you considered the MZ-N707? They are very easy to find on ebay and have remote, microphone, etc. All the feature and a very robust & attractive package. They are also NetMD with both LP2 & LP4. I only use the old SP mode for music but LP2 comes in handy when I record stuff of the History Channel for playback at work. Good luck and interesting question!

[Akai man.]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Geoff. *thumbsup*

[Pacific Stereo]

I see no reason why two decks using the same version of ATRAC wouldn't make identical recordings from a digital stream.

Playback, however, may be quite different between a portable and a stand-alone machine.

[R.Daneel]

I see no reason why two decks using the same version of ATRAC wouldn't make identical recordings from a digital stream.

Not true! It might be true if Atrac DSP was the only thing signal is passing through. Quality of the digital interface, in this case an S/PIDF, plays a vital role in signal stability in terms of tolerance to sync-errors that might occur. Bear in mind that we are talking about a potable MD unit here with optical input only, not coaxial, which will most certainly have far more negative effect on the sound than on a proper home deck. MZ-R501 is an entry-level model and more recent and higher quality ones do have better sound quality even on digital recording. But Atrac is one link in an entire chain.

[Akai man.]

Not true! It might be true if Atrac DSP was the only thing signal is passing through. Quality of the digital interface, in this case an S/PIDF, plays a vital role in signal stability in terms of tolerance to sync-errors that might occur. Bear in mind that we are talking about a potable MD unit here with optical input only, not coaxial, which will most certainly have far more negative effect on the sound than on a proper home deck. MZ-R501 is an entry-level model and more recent and higher quality ones do have better sound quality even on digital recording. But Atrac is one link in an entire chain.

Thanks for the reply matey. Which models of personal MiniDisc recorders would you recommend please ?

Geoff.

[R.Daneel]

Well, I would recommend you get a Sony MZ-NH1 or an MZ-RH1 recorder. These two are basically identical (same DSP, DAC and AKM 24bit ADC as well as mic-preamp). They offer excellent sound quality overall. The midrange is especially well rendered with natural instruments and vocals and plenty of detail. Bass is deep and tight. Highs do sound a little harsh like on all MD stuff but nothing critical. However, they are quite expensive even used. Sharp IM-DR470 is also very good and so is te IM-DR77 but not as good as the recordings have more digital artefacts, obviously a result of the less effective Atrac codec.

In any case, think of it this way. Even if you buy a better recorder, you will not gain anything if you don't have a good MD player. In other words, the recording is only as good as the playback device you have. You will be able to store the music in higher quality with type-R codec, ut without a good type-R player you won't benefit much. This is especially true when discs made on type-R machine are played back on a machine with an older version of Atrac. In contrast, recordings made on older decks often sound bland when played back on a more recent machine.

[Akai man.]

Well, I would recommend you get a Sony MZ-NH1 or an MZ-RH1 recorder. These two are basically identical (same DSP, DAC and AKM 24bit ADC as well as mic-preamp). They offer excellent sound quality overall. The midrange is especially well rendered with natural instruments and vocals and plenty of detail. Bass is deep and tight. Highs do sound a little harsh like on all MD stuff but nothing critical. However, they are quite expensive even used. Sharp IM-DR470 is also very good and so is te IM-DR77 but not as good as the recordings have more digital artefacts, obviously a result of the less effective Atrac codec.

In any case, think of it this way. Even if you buy a better recorder, you will not gain anything if you don't have a good MD player. In other words, the recording is only as good as the playback device you have. You will be able to store the music in higher quality with type-R codec, ut without a good type-R player you won't benefit much. This is especially true when discs made on type-R machine are played back on a machine with an older version of Atrac. In contrast, recordings made on older decks often sound bland when played back on a more recent machine.

Many thanks for the reply.

Geoff. *thumbsup*

[R.Daneel]

No thanks necessary! Christmas is a time of giving:) Keep us posted!

[Pacific Stereo]

I am quite well-versed in digital nuance. While there certainly can be audible differences between an optical and a coaxial digital interface due to multiple factors, these differences are considerably less significant than what any version of ATRAC does to music in general. Your statement also presupposes that the optical interface on any given portable is a POS, which while possibly true in any given case, it certainly is not always true. In addition, it is the source clock that is the most important in the S/PDIF implementation.


Not true! It might be true if Atrac DSP was the only thing signal is passing through. Quality of the digital interface, in this case an S/PIDF, plays a vital role in signal stability in terms of tolerance to sync-errors that might occur. Bear in mind that we are talking about a potable MD unit here with optical input only, not coaxial, which will most certainly have far more negative effect on the sound than on a proper home deck. MZ-R501 is an entry-level model and more recent and higher quality ones do have better sound quality even on digital recording. But Atrac is one link in an entire chain.

[R.Daneel]

I always assumed you were versed so need to say that. Do you still think that a portable MD recorder can make recordings that sound the same as a home MD deck?

[Pacific Stereo]

I would say that when we are talking about recording a digital stream via either an optical or coaxial input, that there's no reason to assume that a portable is not capable of doing that job identically to a home machine, providing that we are talking the same ATRAC revs. There's really not all that much much going on- sync, parse data and encode.

However, in the case where we are going to convert from analog to digital, there are a lot of things to worry about in the case of a portable. One is the hash generated by the necessary switching power supply in the portable, which probably will not be present in the home machine. I would also guess that on balance, we will find a better ADC solution in the home machine than in a typical portable.

[Akai man.]

I would say that when we are talking about recording a digital stream via either an optical or coaxial input, that there's no reason to assume that a portable is not capable of doing that job identically to a home machine, providing that we are talking the same ATRAC revs. There's really not all that much much going on- sync, parse data and encode.

However, in the case where we are going to convert from analog to digital, there are a lot of things to worry about in the case of a portable. One is the hash generated by the necessary switching power supply in the portable, which probably will not be present in the home machine. I would also guess that on balance, we will find a better ADC solution in the home machine than in a typical portable.


Many thanks for the reply. Would you say then that recordings made digitally on a Sony MZ-R501 personal, played back on a Sony MDS-JE510 full sized deck, would sound the same as recordings made digitally on the full sized deck ?

Geoff.

[R.Daneel]

Hello guys!

Pacific Stereo, MD portable recorders are very capable yes but not as capable as home decks. And yes, I am talking digital recordings here exclusively. Analog recording is another kettle of fish altogether. Having owned two dozen MD units I think I have a pretty good grasp of the technology. Plus, we are talking MZ-R501 portable recorder specifically, not generally.

So, a type-R recording on, say an MZ-R909 has more artifacts than on the MZ-NH1 despite the fact it uses the same algorithm. Same specification, different digital signal processor. So is the control chip. I don't know if Sony made them themselves or not but the newer ones are far more efficient. Also, type of battery supply seems to have an influence on the recording quality as well, with the li-ion powered units having more stable recordings. Also, some units seem to introduce artifacts into the recording because of the OLED display technology they use - MZ-RH10 is one example. The intervals in which the noise occurs are consistent with the display refresh rate. On the other hand, units with backlit LCD screen also suffer from a high-frequency sound that is recorded once the display is lit up. All kinds of things are involved here. It would be great if Atrac was the only thing that mattered because then I would really have a portable ES deck every time I take one of the portables out.


Better recorders like the ones I mentioned will give better audio quality in recording and playback and though we are talking digital here, I have to stress out that the ones I mentioned offer superb results with analog recording due to 24bit ADC (older versions like the R501 use 20bit) but also because of the more substantial analog stage and manual recording sensitivity control.

[R.Daneel]

Hi Geoff!

The Sony MZ-R501 is a type-R machine and the MDS-JE510 is a type 4.5 machine so the recordings won't be the same. I cannot say with absolute certainty about the JE510 because I haven't owned that particular model but did own very similar ones. In any case, your R501 will produce good recordings and depending on your system and experience, the differences from your home deck might range from subtle to obvious.

If you can get that R501 cheap and in good condition, then I'd say go for it. It's an entry-level machine but features full editing capabilities and is very simple to use. The magic of MD lies in the portable recorders and their versatility and sound quality for me and it will be a good entrance into the portable MD world. MD stuff is cheap nowadays so you might get something better along the way for little money But till then, the R501 would be a great machine.

[Akai man.]

Hi Geoff!

The Sony MZ-R501 is a type-R machine and the MDS-JE510 is a type 4.5 machine so the recordings won't be the same. I cannot say with absolute certainty about the JE510 because I haven't owned that particular model but did own very similar ones. In any case, your R501 will produce good recordings and depending on your system and experience, the differences from your home deck might range from subtle to obvious.

If you can get that R501 cheap and in good condition, then I'd say go for it. It's an entry-level machine but features full editing capabilities and is very simple to use. The magic of MD lies in the portable recorders and their versatility and sound quality for me and it will be a good entrance into the portable MD world. MD stuff is cheap nowadays so you might get something better along the way for little money But till then, the R501 would be a great machine.

Thanks again for the reply.

I can buy an R501 for about 95 English pounds inclusive of delivery. I've seen used R501's on Ebay UK but obviously there is no way of telling how hard a life they've had.

Geoff.

[R.Daneel]

Hey Geoff! Look, the R501 is a nice unit but not for that kind of a money. That money will certainly get you something much better. I recommend you wait a while and look around a bit. I have seen Sony HiMD units go for less than that. Like the MZ-NH700 or even the NH900. If you can find an R501 with a box and all accessories for 30 pounds, then that is okay but 95 pounds is really too much. Try looking up an MZ-N707 or an N710 as they do often go cheap and are often in great condition. Whatever you do, avoid the ones with exterior damages - especially dents. Some people hate MD because of what happens if you drop the unit while recording so be sure to avoid them no matter what the seller says. There are many units on ebay available and you can always find another one.

[Akai man.]

Ok, thanks matey'

Geoff. *thumbsup*

[Akai man.]

I was outbid (daughter was bidding for me) for an MZ-N710 on Ebay UK on Sunday evening, DOH.

Geoff.

[Nick Sunn]

Akai man:
It seems you are UK based, so why not look for a old SHARP md portable? A tremendous number were sold in the UK, as well as continental Europe, Japan & Australia. Several of the SHARPS that I've owned were sourced from England, many years ago.

You have a 1997 era Sony MDS-JE510 home MD deck which does not have LP2/L4 capability (why on earth would anyone need that? just much more inferior sound!) WHY ON EARTH WOULD ANYONE WANT net MD capabilities, today....? Just record the old fashioned way like a cassette deck would record an album. Jeeze, if you wanna load mp3 like crap from the computer, just use a mp3 player, instead of changing hundreds of MD's. With ancient MD it isn't going to matter whether digitally copied via Toslink from Toslink equipped CD deck to your Sony MDS-JE510 's Toslink connection or whether you go via RCA inputs or if you use optical connection on something like a portable SHARP(or Sony) OPTICAL/LINE IN.
The quality will be outstanding whichever way you go, as long as you adjust the rec levels properly!

You should be able to find a good , fully functional SHARP for less than GBP 9.99 , all day long, every day of the year, with MIC INPUT. (e.g., MT-16, MT-161, MT-20, SR-50, SR-60, SR-75, MD-Mt-821, etc) They are all extremely good "Ancient MD machines" as opposed to Hi-MD machines. All "Ancient MD portables from SONY" are inferior to SHARP portables in my opinion, based on Recording Capabilities for Live Recording and Ease of Use.

[Nick Sunn]

Don't get me wrong. The "Ancient MD machine portables from SONY " are great units too. You just cannot adjust the recording levels WITHOUT PAUSING THE UNIT, while recording (you can't adj "On The Fly") & (Sharp LCD VU Rec levels are easier to see & Sharp MIC IN is better quality, it allows Microphones to come closer to their max SPL specs than Sony since more volt. pwr is provided to Plug In Pwr MIC IN. It is still better too insure getting max capabilities of MICS , that batt box & LINE IN are used instead of MIC IN if earsplitting loud concert.

One thing that you must realize is that both SHARP & SONY models got many more features as they were made even smaller. The upside is Battery Life on the latest models like (2003's) SONY MZ-NF810CK is incredible. SHARP's MD-MT200W is incredible too. The thing is the MD-MT200 has Lp2, & Lp4 DOLBY H, with Normal, Studio, Live, Dome, and all the usual bass settings and such. It complicates things when you just want to do something like Record something or Record Live with a Stereo Mic. Buttons/controls are multifunction and very small. It isn't as easy as with a MD-Mt821. The unit is also plastic vs alloy for the Mt821 which does not have Lp2 or Lp4 capabilities.

In the case of MZ-NF810CK (sony's final design of Ancient MD portable before Hi-MD was introduced in Jan 2004) It came out in 2003.
Like its predecessor, the MZ-G750 (from Jan 2001) it is a great unit with a fm tuner/weatherband. YOU CAN'T RECORD FROM FM on either unit!
These latter SONY's AUTOMATICALLY RECORD OVER EXISTING MATERIAL ON MD's (they are factory pre-set to do so) It seems the public was too dumb to figure out how to Erase MD's with portable units and many never owned home decks, so SONY set it up to erase (record over) existing material. You've gotta manually go thru Menu to Select Option of Rec-Posi SELECT 'FROM END'. This makes these units more of PITA to operate. PITA= pain in the ass. Earlier units like R-37, R-70, R-90, R-55 are much more simple, though these late units have amazing battery life.
The R-37 is newer than the R-55 and R-70, having been released in 1999. The R-37 has case that is large size which is large like models prior to the R-55. Any of R-50, R-55, R-70, R-37, R-90, R-91, R-700, R-900, MZ-N707, MZ-N909, MZ-G750, MZ-NF810CK are excellent SONY's. Some of the earlier non net and non LP2/Lp4 models are easier to use. In my experience using many of them, NONE are ANY BETTER AT RECORDING Than Any Others. They ALL RECORD AMAZING! You'll note that though the early R-50 has a MIC IN, its later MZ-N505 does not have a MIC IN , just a LINE IN. The 501 does not have a mic in either, just a LINE IN. This does not pose a problem for Live Recording, so long as you construct A BATTERY BOX and connect the BATT BOX to the LIne IN and connect the Condenser Mics to the BATT BOX.

[Nick Sunn]

Hopefully not to confuse anyone, on the subject of hi-MD as opposed to "Ancient MD":
SONY MZ-NH1 is hi-md unit from 2004
http://www.sonicstudios.com/mznh1_md.pdf

THIS IS NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH THE "Ancient MD" net md (POS as compared to hi-md) Sony MZ-N1
http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/sonymzn1netmd/
Many people confuse these two, though they are night & day different!



Another early generation hi-md unit like the SONY MZ-NH1 hi-md unit is
SONY MZ-M100 hi-md unit from 2005
http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=638

The SONY MZ-M200 hi-md unit from 2006 is considered superior in ease of use in live recording Over Both the earlier SONY MZ-NH1 hi-md from 2004 AND over the earlier SONY MZ-M100 hi-md from 2005.
http://www.rwonline.com/article/304
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/137543-updating-duplicating-minidisc-recorder-at822-mic-setup.html
http://www.zzounds.com/item--SNYMZM200

The SONY MZ-RH910 hi-md is also considered superior to the earlier MZ-NH1 hi-md and MZ-M100 hi-md unit for ease of use in live recording
http://www.sonicstudios.com/tips.htm



Should your interest be to make the highest quality live recordings possible with portable Digital equipment, then you should give strong consideration to SONY's Newest PCM recorder, the SONY PCM M10, which can be purchased new for around $200. There are few things that can even match its capabilities, provided that quality external mics are used to make the recordings. It is also simpler to transfer digital files than hi-MD and it is among the most state of the art, for any tiny recorder ever made up to now!




As for "Ancient MD" , there are hundreds of models of portables from SONY, Sharp, that are up to the task of providing excellent portable listening for "Ancient MD" format. One doesn't necessarilly need a recording portable if recordings are to be made on the JE-510 home deck or other home deck. But, with the current used price for those portables costing nearly nothing, these days and in great supply because nobody really wants them, --well, you can find plenty of capable units for $10 to $25 US on ebay. Never ever pay more than $25 to $30 US total for any "Ancient MD" portable recorder or player!