Car cassette noise floor/hiss w/no Dolby, Dolby B, or Dolby C

[Q-Authority]

Hi: I finally worked up the nerve to hook-up an Alpine AL-85, which I have been quietly sitting on for a bit, and with which I plan to make tapes, in part, for a (NOS) Alpine 7390 based car audio system. Having only semi-seriously been involved with mostly just car cassette audio in the past, and some low to mid level home cassette units, I was, shall we say, shocked at how little tape hiss was apparent when playing back my extremely antiquated collection of pre-recorded tapes. I have seen posts thoughout this forum, from people stating that they often do not bother to use Dolby on many of their tapes, but I had always thought that they were most likely giving up slight background noise, for some other type of gains. Boy was I wrong!

This all leads me to some questions regarding possible noise floor/background/tape hiss in a car cassette based system, as I plan on making tapes for the following system: a top of the line Alpine 7390 Cassette-tuner with Soundstream amps (D200II), all of which I have had since new (and never installed), a (NOS) SS DX-7 crossover, and a SS MC140 and SS CA 50II, both of which I have recently collected in good used condition. I'll be using these with good quality interconnects, etc., and upper end Morel component speakers.

Now, getting back to the thread title, I would appreciate opinions as to how quiet of a noise floor/background/tape hiss I might expect when playing back tapes, made from the AL-85, on such a system as this. FYI: I will also be using line drivers as needed to boost signal voltage between components.

Any comments would be appreciated, and in particular, I would a) be curious to know what results others have had, b) what their car systems are comprised of, c) how does their in-car noise floor/background/tape hiss vary from that of their cassette home system, d) what home system do they use to make tapes, e) what type of tapes do they use (type I, II, IV), f) do they use any sort of Dolby noise reduction, or not, and g) does their Dolby choice differ for home and car use.

I'm very serious about this, lol, and as I'm sure there are probably a lot fewer serious car cassette enthusiasts here, then there are home ones, I would really appreciate any responses whatsoever.*hope*

[scotchtape]

I used tape in cars 1978-2009, incl. Still have about 80 compilations cassettes.

My main conclusions based on that period of experience, where I commuted daily for 14 of those years, whilst trying different tapes/techniques and doing a lot of faffing about, were:

1 - Best of all (for me anyway), TDK SA - great results with no use of Dolby in either record or play.

2 - Tapes made using Dolby B, dont use Dolby B switched in when in car. "Bright" enhancement with Dolby off when playing a Dolby B recorded tape, helps overall sound in car, IMO.

I would not beat my head in over it, nor waste time reinventing the wheel - trussssst in me! *reelspin*

[Q-Authority]

I appreciate the feedback. It's just that I had such high levels of system/tape hiss in the past, and I'm really hoping to at least reduce that significantly. I've actually had some pretty decent car tape decks before, but wan't that experienced with proper ground and wiring installation, and certainly never made tapes for them with anything other than mediocre home decks. I want this one to be a bit special, as the entire car is a bit of a special project, and one that I might show upon ocassion. I'm just rather curious to know if people can approach the same low noise levels, with a decent car deck, as they can on their home system.

I once had a couple of Nak dolby c tapes that I was actually able to use the dolby c switch with, on a Kenwood KRC-999, but that was rather the exception. Most other tapes did not always fare so well with any type of dolby engaged. However, I've felt that I probably could have gotten better results if I had had the sense to properly match voltage levels between components better back then, lol, and also had done a better job of grounding. I'm afraid that I was a little too willing to just throw things together without doing the proper diligence. This is hopefully going to make up for that a little, and it's not a project that I am taking lightly, else I wouldn't have saved some of the components that will be used, nor spent so much time putting together the rest of it.

[Nakdoc]

I use dolby B tapes in the car, but the dloby is off. What this does is compresses and elevates the treble enough to overcome road noise. (I don't own quiet cars). Many decks do not have 70uS equalization, and playing type 2 or 3 tapes gives a similar effect. The hiss you may remember may have been a combination ot TDK SA with dolby off played on 120uS decks. The neat thing is, you can switch the dolby on and off as you prefer.

[Q-Authority]

Yes, I've had one or two car decks that allowed for tape type selection, and I used those, as per tape, so that generally would not have been my extra noise/edgy sound issue. Fortunately, the systems were at least generally good enough for the differences with and without proper tape type selection to become apparent. So, considering the often large amounts of hiss I sometimes had, though not nearly as much on a deck of the quality of the Kenwood 999, I am guessing that a lot of component noise was introduced, especially as many of the older components had relatively low voltage outputs, and I was using pretty cheap interconnects at the time, as well. Penny wise, pound foolish, for sure, lol.

I guess part of what throws me off a little, in this home record to playback on a mobile unit gumbo, is the fact that my AL-85, while outputting very low hiss, even with your standard ages old pre-recorded tapes, seems to introduce hiss removal overkill when Dolby B is selected for tapes recorded with it. I'm not one who prefers bright/edgy recordings, so I find it a lttle odd that the treble levels, with dolby off on these tapes, is actually just about where I would normally want it to be, and that is after a good cleaning and demagnetizing. Considering I actually needed to engage dolby B ocassionally on my mobile Kenwood unit, I had expected at least the same on the home Alpine unit. Not that I am complaining, per se, as otherwise the music reproduction is exceptionally good on it.

The tonal differences between the original Beatles' cd's and my various Beatles' cassettes (some with and without dolby recording) has also somewhat surprised me, as I am hearing a very pleasant increase in bass on various tapes, compared to their cd counterparts. To tell you the truth, I had never been very happy with the overall mastering of the original cds, but I won't bother to go any farther with that long and twisted subject, lol.

I guess I will just have to start getting serious, and get off my behind, and at least record a sample tape, with different dolby selections to see how the home record/playback portion goes. I also just found a semi-reasonably priced MFSL Revolver cassette (not like that insane priced MFSL tape on ebay at the present *eyepop*), so I am incredibly anxious to get it, and listen to it in comparison to the various fine cd needledrops that I have of it. I would expect it to give me a somewhat better idea of what type of tapes will require dolby playback use. I'm expecting good things.*hope*

[Elite-ist]

Hi Q-Authority,

It has been many years since I had a decent stereo in my car - actually, 1992. However, I do recall that one of the best improvements in creating overall sound satisfaction was the addition of an equalizer. Had you considered an Alpine vintage equalizer, to compliment the rest of your system? And I, still, do use a car receiver in my downstairs bedroom system. I'll comment, later, about the use of DolbyB and home-brew recordings.

Nando.

[Q-Authority]

Hey Nando: I have considered an eq, but limited space may not allow for it in this build. I've got a double din opening, but at the moment I'm planning on using the extra space for an Alpine center channel, to take advantage of the SS DX-7 summed center channel output. It was such a unique feature back then, and my car could really use it, as the left dash speaker is really shielded from the passenger side somewhat. Plus, even though it can sound fairly decent from the driver seat, I would still like to improve the center image a bit. The center channel speaker itself is going to void my all period specific build a bit, but I don't remember anyone having made anything to fit the same space back then, lol. If I do ever decide to use an eq for this build though, I probably would prefer to have it be a hide-away, as I really hate having one that people can easily mess with, ha, ha. Plus, I want things to look a little on the subtle side.

I used to use eq's in the car all the time, and fondly remember a couple of Grundig ones I had quite some time ago. However, I'm currently not running one, in the same sort of car as this project will go into, and for the first time I really didn't need one that badly. It uses an Alpine 3DA in-dash changer/tuner with two SS Rubicon amps, Infinity components, and Morel sub, which will really be fairly similar to the slightly older school build going in the other car. I think the fact that I'm matching voltages more precisely now, and using better speakers and wiring these days, especially much better grounding, has made quite the difference. Additionally, I'm trying to keep the components limited so as to avoid having additional noise floor issues to deal with, but should an eq seem necessary, I suppose I'll find a way to get one installed, but I hope I can avoid it.

[Elite-ist]

Hi Q-Authority,

Now, that would be a novel idea of using the space above/below the Alpine 7390 for a centre channel speaker. Does that mean you'll fabricate a small box to contain the speaker, which I assume will be a full-range speaker, to fit in the open space? Or just use the cavity as an enclosure, with a custom baffle to mount the driver? Perhaps, what may work in improving the directional nature of the front dash speakers firing at the windshield, is to use 1" dome tweeters mounted, inconspicuously, on the windshield pillars. I, also, experimented in cross firing the drivers for more spatial effect, by using one amplifier connected to the front right speaker and the rear left channel, and conversely, the other amplifier to drive the front left speaker and rear right channel. But, that method works well, only, if the speakers are matched, and it's not a large distance between front and rear speakers. The Pioneer CD-7 equalizer I used had an echo feature, too, for a little more ambience.

As far as cassette recordings, specifically, for car environments: My brother-in-law used his TOTL 1981 Pioneer home stereo to make recordings that sounded great in the car. He would use TDK SA90 blanks, mostly, and record without Dolby NR. He used an equalizer to emphasize the low and high frequencies, a dynamic range expander, and a little reverb if the music felt right for using it. He had more fun experimenting with recording material, than I did in playing those tapes. I think, the way you want to hear it in the car, will not be the same as at home. If I can remember any other specifics, I'll let you know.

Nando.

[Q-Authority]

Hi Nando:

I had to debate the center channel idea a bit, when I first thought about it, as the speaker location will not be ideal. It will be located below the cassette deck. However, considering how the left dash speaker, in this particular car, is partially blocked by the driver's dash display (in regards to the passenger position), it probably should be a better than nothing solution. The center imaging may get dragged down just a notch, but at least I will have one for a change, lol. As it stands now, my current system, in the same type car, sounds great, but there is no central image. I'm not an elitist regarding these things, and prefer good overall sound regardless of imperfect imaging though.

Since the center channel output from the DX-7 is summed, it should only be adding to what is already there, if I understand the concept correctly. I don't believe it actually isolates it, as Dolby ProLogic would, so to speak. If that is correct then the center image will only get dragged down just a bit, but not all the way to the center speaker itself, and I can live with that.

The Soundstream, outputs a summed center channel, with an adjustable xover that starts at around 200hz. I believe its output is full range above the xover point. That works well with the center channel speaker I will be using as it is full range from just about that point on up. The center channel speaker I will be using is the Alpine SBS-05DC as seen at the following Crutchfield link: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-hPYPhr98OzX/p_500SBS05DC/Alpine-SBS-05DC.html

It is a ported design that uses two 2" oval midranges with a soft dome 1" tweeter. If all works right, I will be bypassing its built-in low pass xover, in favor of the cleaner SS one. The speaker is designed to fit in either the upper or lower portion of a double din opening. The real challenge will be finagling the Alpine 7390 to fit in a din style opening. I'm hoping that with a little patience I can get the din brackets fitted to the pullout chassis of the 7390, and that the extended brackets will fit up nicely to the center channel speaker to hold it properly in place below it.*hope*

As for other image improvements, I had considered using small tweeters on the side door window triangles, as that would greatly help, but at this point I'm not sure I want to go that far from a stock look. I'll have to try it in the old configuration first, and see how that goes. However, I am already seriously thinking about altering the stock speaker look a little, by mounting the component tweeters on top of the in-dash speaker grills, sort of in a coaxial design, ha, ha. I've got an extra set of oem speaker grills, so maybe I'll experiment with that, and see if it affects the midrange or not, and then go from there.

I liked your idea for the rear speaker cross firing, but that might be a bit much for mine, and I am limited to 3.5" rear speakers, while the fronts are 4". Right now I am considering either using just rear midranges, or disabling the tweeters on a set of coaxials, as I don't want rear tweeters dragging the highs backwards anymore. It's okay for the other car, but I want to take a little more care with this one.

As for recording/playback, I guess I'm mostly curious as to how low a level of playback hiss I will have in the car. The levels in-home with the AL-85 are so low, as to virtually eliminate the need for Dolby, except when playing tapes at really, really loud levels. I guess I'll just have to wait and see how well the car player performs, and go from there.

As for other enhancements, I'm not really too worried about overall in-car frequency response, as the Alpine 7390 should be more than adequate in that area, and the speaker system I'll be using should also be more than up to the task. If I were younger, however, I would probably be dying to hook whatever cool processors I could get my hands on, to enhance the sound (so to speak), but I'm a bit more into the 'Less is More' attitude these days, which is what a lot of high end installers used to preach, and which I always ignored, lol. Well it's all still a little bit off yet, as I am in the middle of getting ready to move, but I will post updates as things do take off, and let you know how it turns out.

I appreciate any and all comments/suggestions you, or anyone else, might have on the subject.

Dave

[giant haystacks]

i have best results with cd 2f thats chrome tapes i use all tapes
i try not to use dolby -i reciently recieved calibration tapes from a.n.t. audio and i will try to see if my engineer can help set my machine better who knows it may work -my car systeym is the tape based end is
nakamichi td1200mk2 tuner tape pre-amp unit
nakamichi ecc200+ecc200h electronic crossovers
nakamichi 100pa power amp
nakamichi pa400 power amp mono bass amp
nakamichi sp80 bass speakers
nakamichi sp50 midrange speakers
infinity mk1 ribbon tweeters
the 100 pa is a super amp
i have quite a large soundstage as car sound goes i think the electronic crossovers dont help to bring a naturalness to the sound most so called good car audio has an impressive av sound and not natural
i have tryed many diffarent combinations ,i will write a little more later

[giant haystacks]

hi i noticed emerald city sounds good i dont know where it is
you mentioned about a centre channel speaker
i think the better amps will help with that the 100pa out performed class a soundstream a3.0 and a5.0 both of which i have also
the now deceased audionote amplification engineer kondo from japan had a valve-tube based amp in his car-he also had the td1200mk2 -a man who i spoke to said it was fantastic so that is my plan sometimeto do the valve-tube route

[Q-Authority]

Hi GH: That is a very impressive soundsystem that you have. I would love to hear for myself just how good a TD1200 is someday. You must be very particular about your sound to consider the Nak electronic xover to be somewhat detremental, but I guess I can understand it when you start reaching the soundquality levels that you probably have. I remember ocassionally seeing people, long, long ago, using all passive xovers, but they could really suck up a lot of power, especially if used for the sub, weren't very practical for most people, and really good ones were quite expensive. Some of the nicer commercial ones, that were made towards the end of the cassette era, truly were beautiful though. It's really great to see someone still putting such an effort into a first rate car audio cassette based system these days. I'd love to hear a valve amped system as well. I remember when Milbert, I think it was, introduced a car tube amp. Ah, those were really great days (ha, ha).

What home cassette deck do you record on, and what sort of noise levels do you get in the car without dolby? How quiet is it compared to your home system? Is there a reason you prefer chrome to metal tapes for the car?

I'm sure that part of the reason I had as much tape noise as I did, way back when, even when I used a Kenwood KRC-999, was that I was using large Seas tweeters, similar to Morel MDT-101's, and did not usually have them matched properly with the various midranges that I tried. I think a car environment is already detrimental as it is, regarding tape hiss, because one usually has to play the music loud enough to overcome car and road noise, plus one is usually so close to the tweeters in a car that the type of sound one gets from tape hiss is less likely to dissipate before reaching the listener, as opposed to the distances in a normal home environment. Unfortunately, I have always had my systems in very small cars, so I have always been very, very close to the tweeters, lol.

I would agree somewhat regarding the type of sound in a car, but then it is next to impossible to really set up a car system in anything approaching a proper layout, speakerwise. I have learned to settle for simply appreciating the quality of the overall sound, and have let go of trying to have a truly proper soundstage. If I can get the frequency response very near where I want it, then I am usually pretty happy with things, ha,ha.

I will be very interested to hear the SS amps that I am planning on using. But first, I will actually be having them inspected, and possibly modified by the original engineer who designed them, and has his own business doing such work these days. I know the class a's that you referred to were regarded as pretty good amps, but I don't remember anyone comparing them to the slightly older amps that I have. Mine all used to get pretty good reviews, but considering the type of car everything will be in (not Mercedes quiet I'm afraid), some of their qualities will be wasted. But then much of the personal appreciation will be mentally implied anyway, lol.

Oh by the way, Emerald City is just a nickname for the area where I live. Nowhere near the lovely emerald isles I'm afraid.

[giant haystacks]

i am a poor typer. i love the car audio. the uk car audio forums have a av mentality and i am only interested in a good sound. i use chrome because i have 2 nakamichi 1000 tri tracer tape recorder with normal or chrome setting and one of them is resident at a friends house who has a simon yorke series 7 record player so that is where my tapes are recorded . i have reciently got calibration tapes of a.n.t . who writes on this forum so improvements will follow and a friend has given me a nakamichi 581 early 80s machine
i have dolby calibration tape so il try to help the td1200mk2
it is pretty simple inside the soundstreams there were a couple of stressed looking resistors which were still working which were changed
i would like to long term have a passive valve based for at least treble midrange end the type 45 tube can be used for such amp but the el95 valve -tube was used years ago aND LOADS OF NEW OLD STOCK
i have the original kef component speakers' boston pro' infinity rsds components' and nakamichi component speakers
if you had room the nakamichi 250 is a great tape player for car and can be got cheap and run on 12 volt
keep up the intrest and il try to open up soundstreams and show circuit board in photos and try to explain what repairs i done thanks for now

[DecentMan4you]

Hi: I finally worked up the nerve to hook-up an Alpine AL-85, which I have been quietly sitting on for a bit, and with which I plan to make tapes, in part, for a (NOS) Alpine 7390 based car audio system. Having only semi-seriously been involved with mostly just car cassette audio in the past, and some low to mid level home cassette units, I was, shall we say, shocked at how little tape hiss was apparent when playing back my extremely antiquated collection of pre-recorded tapes. I have seen posts thoughout this forum, from people stating that they often do not bother to use Dolby on many of their tapes, but I had always thought that they were most likely giving up slight background noise, for some other type of gains. Boy was I wrong!

This all leads me to some questions regarding possible noise floor/background/tape hiss in a car cassette based system, as I plan on making tapes for the following system: a top of the line Alpine 7390 Cassette-tuner with Soundstream amps (D200II), all of which I have had since new (and never installed), a (NOS) SS DX-7 crossover, and a SS MC140 and SS CA 50II, both of which I have recently collected in good used condition. I'll be using these with good quality interconnects, etc., and upper end Morel component speakers.

Now, getting back to the thread title, I would appreciate opinions as to how quiet of a noise floor/background/tape hiss I might expect when playing back tapes, made from the AL-85, on such a system as this. FYI: I will also be using line drivers as needed to boost signal voltage between components.

Any comments would be appreciated, and in particular, I would a) be curious to know what results others have had, b) what their car systems are comprised of, c) how does their in-car noise floor/background/tape hiss vary from that of their cassette home system, d) what home system do they use to make tapes, e) what type of tapes do they use (type I, II, IV), f) do they use any sort of Dolby noise reduction, or not, and g) does their Dolby choice differ for home and car use.

I'm very serious about this, lol, and as I'm sure there are probably a lot fewer serious car cassette enthusiasts here, then there are home ones, I would really appreciate any responses whatsoever.*hope*
I would a) be curious to know what results others have had,
b) what their car systems are comprised of,
c) how does their in-car noise floor/background/tape hiss vary from that of their cassette home system,
d) what home system do they use to make tapes,
e) what type of tapes do they use (type I, II, IV), f) do they use any sort of Dolby noise reduction, or not, and
g) does their Dolby choice differ for home and car use.

aa.) I need more time to show off other configurations I have had but this should do for starter's...

ba.) previous truck http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1uA-EDXe2A had Many cassette reciver's in dash custom installed by me - no pictures ever take though and
now i wish that i did,
head unit - various, then to a radioshack 7-band eq line-in/out only, next signal went to a audiocontrol 2XS active Crossover at 90hz - summed to mono out to a
dedicated Jensen A-200 amp bridged to 100 watts directly to a 10 inch Blue thunder mounted in a Tri-anglular shaped ported sub box mounted behind driver's ((( See picture's below )))
seat. again from the AudioControl 2XS in Stereo to another Jensen A-200 out to a [ if I dig around in here I might still have them 2way speakers somewhere]
top of the line 2-way Pioneer 6.5 inch 2-way speakers mounted in each door.

Ca.) this was a loud interior 1987 Nissan Kingcab truck - when I listened to my sounds depending upon many factors, I would use / not use - Dolby + 70us
versus 120us or some variation of these 2. Basically if I desired to hear this at a High Volume the i would use both Dolby and 70us if the cassette played
was recorded with these parameters. at low volume's [ parked somewhere - waiting or whatever ] I would play around with all of the buttons to play as my
desired mood moved me :)

da.) Teac V-2RX - Home Deck ! if you didnt know already :)

ea.) chrome or metal - never the cheap stuff, only ever used for voice-recordings.

Ga.) If recorded in dolby then i use dolby to playback where ever I am playing whatever. If not recorded in dolby then it's not engaged.
p.s. I Still have most all of the stuff ever installed in above truck - as this was my ongoing test-bed for the best sounding in vehicle Stereo system on a
budget around $600.00 us dollars invested on the average in only this vehicle.
I can also say that I recieved many compliment's on how WELL this sounded - NOT how LOUD it was as this was NOT by design to be LOUD but Good Sounding...
in a moving vehicle and since this was a kingcab or extended cab pickup truck the only Space removed from this was the sub-woofer insatlled in seating/storage
area directly behind the driver's seat

Front Subwoofer Kingcab custombuilt IMG_0964
http://i54.tinypic.com/x1zt5c.jpg
Rightside Subwoofer Kingcab custombuilt IMG_0965
http://i52.tinypic.com/10r0ahe.jpg
Leftside Subwoofer Kingcab custombuilt IMG_0966
http://i52.tinypic.com/e9gi1v.jpg
I hope these are ok sized pictures i just took this morning here 17 inch screen size