Gonna Take The Plunge. Need Some TT Advice

[Des-Lab]

Ok fellow tapers. I know some of you are real vinyl afficiandos. That is one area of analog that is my weakest point. I don't have anywhere near the amount of knowledge I do with tape when it comes to vinyl.

But I've decided. I'm going to finally, after all these years, add a turntable to my system. My 35th b-day is coming up in little over a month and my wife said she'd buy one for me. I just need to pick it out and tell her where to get it. In addition to that, I am going to dig up my fathers old SAE-5000 impulse noise reduction unit, dust it off and hook it up. Hopefully after sitting dormant all these years it'll still work. Once I get it, I can have his crates of records. I'll also start hitting a couple of local record stores here. So I'll be in the position of having an instant collection and not have to start from scratch.

So now I need some suggestions based on what I'm looking for.

First, I want a new deck. I don't care about an Ebay or Craigslist "special". I want to do this right the first time.

My budget will be about $600.

Pro (DJ) or component?

The deck will be used for nominal listening to and dubbing from [mostly] stereo LP's. No "DJ'ing" or "scratching" or any of that nonsense. And neither am I looking for a status symbol; just something that will reliably and faithfully play LPs.

Built in pre amp or use the phono in through my mixer (it has a pre-amp built in that I can use)?

Belt or direct? Pros and cons of both?

Brand of stylus? What is their typical life expectency and should I buy a spare cartridge or two?

Also. A handful of the old records I would inherit are mono pressings. Do I need a separate cartridge for those or can they be played with a stereo stylus?

Would "like" the plastic cover. But is not a dealbreaker.

Black would be preferred because it will match the rest of my system. But again, that will not make or break my choice. If a better deck is available in silver, I'll buy it in silver.

I already know where I can and will buy velvet brush and D3 cleaner. What else do I need? Perhaps a "45" spindle adaptor? Do any tables come with those? Where would I buy one if not?

What other accessories should I consider?

I might be able to begin my search as soon as tomorrow.

Thanks in advance for the tips.

[vinyldavid]

This is a LITTLE over budget, but I have this, and LOVE IT:

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/project/products/xpression3.htm

Comes with a decent cart pre-mounted, so all you have to do is attache the antiskate weight and the counterweight, and put the belt/platter on.

Very easy setup.

Comes with a dustcover.

And it's black. With an acrylic platter. Arm's made from black carbon fiber.

I'd get a vacuum record cleaning machine sometime.....if you really want to clean vinyl.

Mono can be played stereo with no problems/changes in stylii and carts

No built in pre, and I'd reccomend something OTHER than a built in phono pre on almost any DJ-type mixer, because those are meant for DJing, not audiophile use. Use the phono pre on the mixer until you can get enough money to get a good one. The ones made by ProJect come with good recommendations from Michael Fremer.


if that's too much $$$, get yourself a Technics SL-1200Mk2 in black from www.kabusa.com. They know their stuff well, and I am not affiliated with them other than buying a stylus or two.

Stylii. Should last for a while....6 months-a year for one. With care. Obviously, letting the stylus hit the label or drop somewher bad is not a good thing.


Lastly, all of the 'tables I recommended are manual, no autoreturn/autostart. All manual.

Good luck, and let us know how you do!

[Scorpion8]

Technics SL-1200 from KAB USA (http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/index.htm). You'll also need a record cleaning brush (Discwasher), carbon-fibre brush, and stylus cleaning stuff.

[hakka26]

Music Hall also makes 'em in black. I think anything above the MM3 is very pricey though.

[gamve]

Matt, don't mean to rain on your parade BUT
IMHO You are asking a terrible lot for your budget. To get good results from vinyl I reckon you need to be terribly lucky to get anything worth listening to for under $1500.00.
If you consider the following
Rega RB250 arm $295.00
Dennon or similar cartridge MM $150.00
Dennon DL103 MC cartridge $ 275.00
El cheapo MM phono stage $150.00
El cheapo MC phono stage $250.00
This stuff is So So quality and is fine and will sound good if matched properly and set up well but there is no money left for the turntable.
If you go much lower than this standard you will end up with crap sound and you will have spent good money for something you will not end up using. Also remember Ebay is not very kind to the lower end electronics market.
Matt, I can help with a very good MM phono stage that I build myself that would set you back less than US $100 delivered.
I say save your money $600.00 is a good start and put off buying the TT setup till you can at least meet rough minimum standard as set out above.
Cheers
G

[Eldorado]

Gamve's right. $600 sounds terribly low. A friend of mine here is talking about getting a deck with a budget of $400, and he's got a few demands piled on top of that that make it just impossible. $600 is better, but still barely enough.

I think Gamve might be more of a vinyl fundamentalist than me (not to mention knowing a hell of a lot more about the subject). I favour Rega myself (if you're on a limited budget, though the P3 is more than 600 I think). But that's partly because I've got quite a few Rega components now, some of which have been performing without a hitch for ten years, I like the company's philosophy, and hey, they're British, like me. But I just play music for fun, I don't spend a lot of time sweating about coaxing out the best sound quality possible or rebuilding my life around the equipment - though my system is perfectly respectable. Some of my records sound great, others sound barely acceptable (I've got a mixture of new, mainly 200g LPs, and quite a bit of second hand stuff of varying quality.) I've never bought into the idea that records always sound better than CD, and I'm glad as hell that I don't have to rely on them as my only source. But I hope you'll get as much pleasure out of vinyl as I've had, or better still, as the real vinyl junkies get.

One thing; I've got nothing in particular against the Technics 1200s, and they're built like a rock, but it IS more of a DJ deck, and if you don't need that, I think it's better just to get a more home-oriented turntable. You can pick up a 2nd hand 1200 any time if you decide later you want to try them out. They're not going away.

[ferriteman]

I agree with most of the guys here...$600 is a tad low on the budget side for a tt. However, you can often find deals on used ones; you indicated that you wanted to avoid E-Bay (understandable; tt's don't ship easily) are there any hifi shops in your area? California, correct? A lot of established shops do sell resale tt equipment. I would think that there are plenty in the land of sunshine... For around $600 a used Rega could be found if you are persistent (although these are more common in the UK).

I have actually seen used VPI 19s - the junior or earlier models, go for around $600 without the arm. You could then shop for an arm. A nice hifi turntable. American made. Then there is the Well Tempered tt; it comes with it's own arm. Check prices for earlier SOTA tt;s, you might find one in this price range. But if you are set on getting one new, you should raise your budget ceilling a bit. Make sure you have fun with your shopping, after all, this is a HOBBY!

[Eldorado]

I have actually seen used VPI 19s - the junior or earlier models, go for around $600 without the arm. You could then shop for an arm. A nice hifi turntable. American made.

VPI. Not $600 this one, but ooh yeah.

http://www.zenn.com.sg/VPI_Scout.JPG

[ferriteman]

Oh yeah, I meant to mention this: If you are fairly strict about your tt budget for now, the best thing to do is allocate as much of the funds to the tt and arm, then get a cheaper cartridge. Then you can upgrade the cartridge in a year or 2. It is a lot easier to upgrade a cartridge than a tone arm or entire tt.

[Fast Forward]

Matt my offer still holds for the spare Yamaha I have,, If you spend all that cash on a deck and don,t like Vinyl your out 600.00 with my deal your out the shipping

[niklasthedolphin]

Well.............

The only well sounding TT I've heard that still can be purchased from new at a budget is from The Funk Firm (http://www.thefunkfirm.co.uk/).

And even the cheapest of those is way over your budget.

If you want good sound from a TT that is not complicated to set up like well-sprung Pink Triangle, Systemdek or SME 30 is something like Nottingham Anna Log (http://www.dejavuaudio.com/ANALOGUE-NOTTINGHAM-ANNALOG.HTM).

You get realy good sound out of Rega arms but not from their TT's and not from the ProJect line either.

Best low-budget Cartridges are to be found among Shelter, Goldring, Audio Technica, Benz, Ortofon, Audio Note, Linn, Lyra, Sumiko.

Get out and listen. I'm afraid you will realize that you get only crap at the planned budget.

Denon cratridge is IMHO only an emergency solution.

Why are you so turned-off on the used TT/arm solution?

You can for sure get a good deal out there and TT's didn't develop the last 20-25 years.
The best ones are still from back then.

I wish you the best luck.

I never gave up on TT playing since I started i the 60's.

"dolph"

[vinyldavid]

One thing; I've got nothing in particular against the Technics 1200s, and they're built like a rock, but it IS more of a DJ deck, and if you don't need that, I think it's better just to get a more home-oriented turntable. You can pick up a 2nd hand 1200 any time if you decide later you want to try them out. They're not going away.

No. They're not.

The SL-1200 designed as an SP-10 with an integrated tonearm to save consumers the hassle, and designed as a very high performance TT.

DJ's picked up on them because they were just about indestructible.

[Rex Everything]

I'd like to second the idea of looking for a nice used TT. With your budget you can score a nice TOTL used TT and may have money to spare for a RCM or a nice cartridge or.......

I picked up both my Denon DP-3700 and my Pioneer PL-570 locally for $100 each. I really dig both tables and am interested in stepping up to a nice Denon DP-62 when and if I can find one for the right price.

You are greatly limiting yourself w/ a $600 budget for a new table as most in the range will barely be middle of the road for new tables.

This being said FastForwards offer for the price of shipping would be a good way to get a table to listen to all those album while you search for a high end table.

[clhboa]

My advice is would be talk to Kevin at KAB. While 600.00 is a bit low he does have some reasonably priced turntables that might do the trick. While the audio magazines poo-poo direct drive I love mine.

[Scorpion8]

No. They're not. The SL-1200 designed as an SP-10 with an integrated tonearm to save consumers the hassle, and designed as a very high performance TT. DJ's picked up on them because they were just about indestructible.

VD is right on in this one. The SL-1200's are renowned 'tables, and let's step back and remember our audience. Matt isn't looking to become an instant vinyl gold ear. He wants a 'table to play some vinyl. A decent table, and amongst those being made this option is a good deck, fits in his budget, and is not too pricey if he never decides to go any farther. Fitted with a nice Ortofon 2M Red or Shure M97Xe (both of which, while opinions will vary, can be had reasonably and are decent pickups) he should be able to listen and enjoy vinyl and then decide if he needs to go further. That KAB Technics deck would also have great re-sale value in that case also.

[Des-Lab]

Wow. See what I mean? Quite a flurry. Had no idea that $600 wouldn't be adequate for this endeavor. Shows you what I know about TT's. That kind of surprises me though. I've seen some "pro" 'tables sell for around $200-$400. And you mean that won't come close with a comparable component setup?

Two of the main reasons I'm considering a DJ rig is because 1) there are MANY of them to choose from. And 2) as noted above, many of them are built for being abused, handled roughly, etc. While I have no intention of actually doing that, it is the rugged construction (and presumed reliability and long life) that piques my interest.

And yes. Scorp nailed it when he said my intent is simply to be able to listen to records and maybe dub from there. I want to get in from a good starting point so that, should I choose, I can always easily upgrade later. If not, then I won't be stuck with a dog either. Hence why I'm pretty adamant that I want a "new in box" unit that I can examine before buying and drive it home without worying that UPS will play football with it.

[vinyldavid]

Wow. See what I mean? Quite a flurry. Had no idea that $600 wouldn't be adequate for this endeavor. Shows you what I know about TT's. That kind of surprises me though. I've seen some "pro" 'tables sell for around $200-$400. And you mean that won't come close with a comparable component setup?

Two of the main reasons I'm considering a DJ rig is because 1) there are MANY of them to choose from. And 2) as noted above, many of them are built for being abused, handled roughly, etc. While I have no intention of actually doing that, it is the rugged construction (and presumed reliability and long life) that piques my interest.

And yes. Scorp nailed it when he said my intent is simply to be able to listen to records and maybe dub from there. I want to get in from a good starting point so that, should I choose, I can always easily upgrade later. If not, then I won't be stuck with a dog either. Hence why I'm pretty adamant that I want a "new in box" unit that I can examine before buying and drive it home without worying that UPS will play football with it.

Des, pro tables are NOT intended for home HiFi use. Many have straight tonearms and are only meant for scratching. In this case, pro does NOT > home HiFi, although the reverse is sometimes the case.

For new HiFI tables, if you REALLY want to stick to under $600, a Rega P1 or ProJect Debut III would be i n order, but I have heard that there are speed problems with the Rega. Seen a couple of AK threads on it, too. The ProJect debut III comes with a VERY high recommendation from many of my friends, once you upgrade the cart. I'd still say a ProJect 1 Xpression III if you can swing it. It comes with a decent cart already mounted, and it's a level above the Debut. It can also handle cartridges costing more than double it's price, while not being outclassed.

OTOH, if you want a 'Pro' table, get the Technics SL-1200, it's a good 'un, but then you would need to get a cart and mount it (not all that hard), I have heard that the Shure M97's are a good match for the Technics arm on a Review in TNT audio, so that's what I'd recommend....I love vintage Shure carts, and the M97 is the only one left from that lineup....remember that it was designed as a TOTL direct drive and the only changes over the years (aside from some cosmetic ones) were the addition of the pitch slider and some other things related to that.


Good luck!

[close652]

I want a "new in box" unit that I can examine before buying and drive it home without worying that UPS will play football with it.

You can buy the Pro-Ject turntables in California.
Plain turntables but can be easily upgraded.

http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?cat=default&lang=en

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/

[Scorpion8]

Why not an Ion USB Turntable? :D

Seriously, don't go with a DJ table like a NuMark or AudioTechnica. They are cheap knockoffs. The Technics SL-1200 was designed as a top-end direct drive 'table and the ones upgraded by KAB USA are superb decks.

[niklasthedolphin]

Des, pro tables are NOT intended for home HiFi use. Many have straight tonearms and are only meant for scratching. In this case, pro does NOT > home HiFi, although the reverse is sometimes the case.

For new HiFI tables, if you REALLY want to stick to under $600, a Rega P1 or ProJect Debut III would be i n order, but I have heard that there are speed problems with the Rega. Seen a couple of AK threads on it, too. The ProJect debut III comes with a VERY high recommendation from many of my friends, once you upgrade the cart. I'd still say a ProJect 1 Xpression III if you can swing it. It comes with a decent cart already mounted, and it's a level above the Debut. It can also handle cartridges costing more than double it's price, while not being outclassed.

OTOH, if you want a 'Pro' table, get the Technics SL-1200, it's a good 'un, but then you would need to get a cart and mount it (not all that hard), I have heard that the Shure M97's are a good match for the Technics arm on a Review in TNT audio, so that's what I'd recommend....I love vintage Shure carts, and the M97 is the only one left from that lineup....remember that it was designed as a TOTL direct drive and the only changes over the years (aside from some cosmetic ones) were the addition of the pitch slider and some other things related to that.


Good luck!

Hmmmm

What's wrong with a straight arm?

I'll bet there's a bigger chance of getting a good sounding arm looking for a straight than looking for an s-arm.

"dolph"

[Nak_novice]

Scorp nailed it when he said my intent is simply to be able to listen to records and maybe dub from there. I want to get in from a good starting point so that, should I choose, I can always easily upgrade later. If not, then I won't be stuck with a dog either. Hence why I'm pretty adamant that I want a "new in box" unit that I can examine before buying and drive it home without worying that UPS will play football with it.[/QUOTE]

Not sure if a good new tt can be had for your budget over there, but I would definitely not go for a mediocre new table when I could spend the same budget on a good second hand unit from a store locally that could advise on matching the cart / arm to the table and show you how to set it up and let you audition it first too. Have a good look into it - you have nothing to lose. As scorp said, you can always cut your teeth with a lower end cart and well matched table / arm and upgrade later.

Rgds, Ben

[Rex Everything]

Sounds like you should go for the Technics 1200 to me.

As for the straight arm, doesn't your new Pro-Ject have a straight arm, VD?

[Des-Lab]

The Technics does seem to be the one that fits the bill for me. So it's in the forefront of my search.

Of course I want to audition it first and continue searching.

[vinyldavid]

Sounds like you should go for the Technics 1200 to me.

As for the straight arm, doesn't your new Pro-Ject have a straight arm, VD?

I meant straight arm where the headshell was also straight...IE, no tracking at all....

Straight Arm:
http://thewallpapers.narod.ru/archive07/vestax_pdx_2000_dj_turntable.jpg

ProJect 1 Xpression III:
http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2008/images/project_1xpression-l.jpg


Look VERY closely at the orientation of the cartridges.....imagine what the straight arm will do to your vinyl, while the Project maintains Baerwald alignment....

[Rat44]

Nice lookin' table David.
Didn't know you bought one.

[MacGyver]

Ok fellow tapers. I know some of you are real vinyl afficiandos. That is one area of analog that is my weakest point. I don't have anywhere near the amount of knowledge I do with tape when it comes to vinyl.

But I've decided. I'm going to finally, after all these years, add a turntable to my system. My 35th b-day is coming up in little over a month and my wife said she'd buy one for me. I just need to pick it out and tell her where to get it. In addition to that, I am going to dig up my fathers old SAE-5000 impulse noise reduction unit, dust it off and hook it up. Hopefully after sitting dormant all these years it'll still work. Once I get it, I can have his crates of records. I'll also start hitting a couple of local record stores here. So I'll be in the position of having an instant collection and not have to start from scratch.

So now I need some suggestions based on what I'm looking for.

First, I want a new deck. I don't care about an Ebay or Craigslist "special". I want to do this right the first time.

My budget will be about $600.

Pro (DJ) or component?

The deck will be used for nominal listening to and dubbing from [mostly] stereo LP's. No "DJ'ing" or "scratching" or any of that nonsense. And neither am I looking for a status symbol; just something that will reliably and faithfully play LPs.

Built in pre amp or use the phono in through my mixer (it has a pre-amp built in that I can use)?

Belt or direct? Pros and cons of both?

Brand of stylus? What is their typical life expectency and should I buy a spare cartridge or two?

Also. A handful of the old records I would inherit are mono pressings. Do I need a separate cartridge for those or can they be played with a stereo stylus?

Would "like" the plastic cover. But is not a dealbreaker.

Black would be preferred because it will match the rest of my system. But again, that will not make or break my choice. If a better deck is available in silver, I'll buy it in silver.

I already know where I can and will buy velvet brush and D3 cleaner. What else do I need? Perhaps a "45" spindle adaptor? Do any tables come with those? Where would I buy one if not?

What other accessories should I consider?

I might be able to begin my search as soon as tomorrow.

Thanks in advance for the tips.


WHOA!! the boss has never owned a TT?!?! who woulda thunk! even I have a TT, (albeit a crappy one) and i'm a diehard CD user with long, past experience in compact cassette!! there are plenty of WONDERFUL vintage TTs awaiting you, des.many excellent choices indeed. of course though, you won't be in like flynn with the nuevo 21'st century new-age vinyl crowd until you mortgage your house for a $40.000 SME TT and a $10,000 KOETSU cart. still, even then, you won't TRULY be blessed as one of the chosen until you pull the required $100,000 out of nowhere for a "Bermeister Air Reference" TT. good luck entering the crazy, crazy voodoo-magic rich-old-fart TT world of the 21st century, Des...

[gamve]

Hey, Des
Any progress on the turntable hunt
Cheers
G

[graffias79]

Some people will say bad things about the M97xE, but I am not one of them. From experience, I say that cartridge is very rich sounding. One of my favorite aspects of it is the stabilizer brush, which lets that cartridge track a warp like nobody's business. If you run with the brush up, I would recommend about 1.25 grams of tracking force, and 1.5 with the brush down.

The Shure sounds good to me on my Marantz 6200 and also my Dual 1241 where it now resides. The Marantz now carries an older M95. I guess I love the Shure sound :-)

Another cartridge that I have heard rave reviews of is the Audio Technica AT120. I haven't yet acquired said cart, but it is in my future.

I'm sure you will be pleased with your purchases regardless. One thing not to forget is a carbon fibre brush. For cleaning purposes, distilled water with a few drops of isopropyl alcohol and a drop or two of dawn all in a spray bottle does wonders paired with a microfibre cloth.

[BroonsBane]

I think a budget of $600 is a decent starting point. Sure, you can spend much much more but if this is going to be a source for dubbing and occassional listening then whey blow a bunch more?

I can't recall in this thread if it was mentioned whether you wanted a manual, semi-auto or auto machine. I like the convenience of my semi-auto table but of course, opinions will vary.

I almost bought this table:

http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=rpm5&cat=turntables&lang=en

but instead opted for a well-cared for Denon DP-62L. You can think this decision to death. My advice is to find a table that you think will meet your needs and jump in. There's always time and opportunity to "upgrade" later if you choose. The important thing here is that you start spinning! YMMV.

[maxdog]

Interesting post, I am also looking for a TT, but as my gear is primarily Sansui my present top of the list is an SR 838.
How does that compare to the suggestions given to our fearless leader?
Maxdog

[Rex Everything]

Interesting post, I am also looking for a TT, but as my gear is primarily Sansui my present top of the list is an SR 838.
How does that compare to the suggestions given to our fearless leader?
Maxdog

I don't own one but I have heard and checked one out and the Sansui SR838 is a very nice table. It's one step down from the TOTL SR929 IIRC.

Member Broonsbane has the SR929. Not sure how close it is to the SR838 but he may know and may be able to give you some details.

[Fairchild]

Please don't take this as thread crapping, to the contrary, I listen to Lp's as my primary source.

There have been many excellent suggestions, I prefer belt driven, suspension type tables, very heavy platters and plinths.

No matter which table you decide on, clean vinyl is essential to being able to completely enjoy records.

You can do this many ways, the VPI's are very good units, you can make you own record cleaning machine as others have done, as with TT's there are automatic and manual. Garage-a-Records sells a Spin Clean which is manual and does a decent job. A carbon fiber brush is fine for touch up but nothing takes the place of deep cleaning. There is nothing worse than putting on a nice selection, sitting back ready to enjoy, and POP, crackle, crackle.

Jim

[stuwee]

Hi ya Matt! I'll throw in my *twocents* . You live in a prime area for CL buys. Or e-bay search for your area. Is anyone on TH in your area? Get into the habit of checking frequently at the ads, good stuff in a competative area like yours means lot's of stuff out there and = snapped up fast! I bet you could find some nice older rig within your budget. Make sure to bring the wife or a friend get it safely home on their lap, bring a camera to get pics of the settings on the arm, in case they change on the way home. Most folks with a nice TT had an equally nice cart. on it though, it may need a stylus replacement. Remember I paid the princely sum of $225 for my Thorens back in '77 and I still have it, many, many carts later. I set all of them up myself, the SME arm just looks scarey, arms are very intuitive in their workings. I'd get a detachable headshell arm here for the sake of easy cart upgrades, a good arm will let you adjust.

Craig

[Des-Lab]

I have no idea if anyone is close to me or not. I know we have SoCal Sam, but SoCal is a pretty big ass area, encompassing everything from Ventura to San Diego and Santa Monica to Palm Springs. That is a LOT of real estate. And I have no idea where in that area he resides.

Surely in an area that size (and that many people), there are some other tapeheads in the area. As for CL, eh. I don't really browse it that much. I guess it wouldn't hurt to look. I'm probably going to start by looking at some of the pro sound shops that are in my area. There are a few here in Orange County that are within a 20 or 25 minute drive. Then, once I get it, a trip up to Amoeba Records in Hollywierd will be in order.

Back in the late 80's and early 90's, I knew of TONS of Audiophile Component stores. I don't mean the Good Guys and Circuit Citys of the world (although back then, both stores did carry some good stuff. Best Buy didn't invade SoCal till '94, but the good stuff was pretty much gone or on its way out by then anyway). I mean small chains like RogerSound Labs. They had locations in Pasadena, Westminster, Montclair, and a few others over in the South Bay and West Side where I never really went. Or the one-of stores such as "And Now Sound" and "Sound Factor" (both in Pasadena). Those were the places to get some good gear. Their prices weren't always the best, but they usually only carried the better end of their linueps. And they were staffed with knowledgable, trained staff who could answer any question you could throw at him. Not like the kids of today that if you ask something about "Frequency Response", all you get is a blank stare and maybe a "huh?" while he tries pecking away on the keyboard.

Sadly except for Circuit City (now junk anyway), all the stores I used to hit on my "rounds"-every single one-is now either out of business or so far distanced and evolved from its original incarnation as to also be esentially defunct.

If anyone KNOWS of any remaining Audiophile outlets in the greater LA area, please do tell me. Cuz I sure haven't seen any.

Oh sure I still see "stereo" every so often. But they all turn out to be motley assortments of car audio (of questionable legitimacy staffed by questionable characters) accessorized with cell phones, rims, fart cannon mufflers, and window tinting services.

[Mr. Lin]

You get realy good sound out of Rega arms but not from their TT's and not from the ProJect line either.




I have no idea why you would say that, to be quite honest. First of all, Rega turntables are highly regarded and some people are so dedicated to them they use them exclusively. Second, I own a Pro-Ject RM-5, and it is an incredible turntable, especially for the price. I also have a Thorens TD125 MKII, and frankly the Pro-Ject is a much better turntable. Combined with a Dynavector 10X5 cartridge the sound is probably more than most people could ask for. Among new turntables, in my experience and the experience of many others, Pro-Ject is one of the best, if not the best, values in new turntables, particularly in the sub-$1000 category.

That said, Matt, I would strongly recommend you consider the Xpression, I don't think you're going to do much better than that around this price point. It's similar in a lot of ways to the model I have, so I can tell you that the tonearm is highly versatile and compatible with a wide range of cartridges, leaving you a lot of options there. The issue of what cartridge to go with is a big one.

Also, although I'm sure some receivers have decent phono stages, I personally don't believe in going that route if at all possible. One of the more important investments in a turntable setup is a dedicated phono preamp, and you don't necessarily need to spend a fortune either.

If any of this sounds good to you let me know and I'll help out in any way I can with your questions.

[vinyldavid]

That said, Matt, I would strongly recommend you consider the Xpression, I don't think you're going to do much better than that around this price point.

This is what Michael Fremer says, too....

[niklasthedolphin]

I have no idea why you would say that, to be quite honest. First of all, Rega turntables are highly regarded and some people are so dedicated to them they use them exclusively. Second, I own a Pro-Ject RM-5, and it is an incredible turntable, especially for the price.


I say that because I know.

The new Rega P7 and P9 are a lot better than the old Planar, P1, P2 and P3.
I never heard P5 but I don't wxpect it to be better than P7.
I also heard a lot of the ProJect TT's including TOTL model RPM 10.

I tell you that if you buy a second hand Pink Triangel or Systemdek IIX, 900, IV, you will kick ass on those Rega and ProJect and you will kick ass with big boots.

I's sorry if I offend your possesion but I am at least honest to my experiences.

In comparison the Rega and ProJect TT's lack soundstage a lot, they lack the definition of deep notes, they lack the fine articulation in the top.
No reason to go more in details about that.

I also have a Thorens TD125 MKII, and frankly the Pro-Ject is a much better turntable. Combined with a Dynavector 10X5 cartridge the sound is probably more than most people could ask for. Among new turntables, in my experience and the experience of many others, Pro-Ject is one of the best, if not the best, values in new turntables, particularly in the sub-$1000 category.

I don't talk about what people ask for. A lot of people are novices and a lot of people buy what the neighbour have.
Some people are tone deaf and some people only listen to music that can't help in any way decising what sounds good and bad.

And today, talking about sub $ 1.000 TT's is like going for a new > 500ccm motorcycle in the sub $ 2000 category................you'll have to settle with chinese bikes.

That said, Matt, I would strongly recommend you consider the Xpression, I don't think you're going to do much better than that around this price point. It's similar in a lot of ways to the model I have, so I can tell you that the tonearm is highly versatile and compatible with a wide range of cartridges, leaving you a lot of options there. The issue of what cartridge to go with is a big one.

Also, although I'm sure some receivers have decent phono stages, I personally don't believe in going that route if at all possible. One of the more important investments in a turntable setup is a dedicated phono preamp, and you don't necessarily need to spend a fortune either.

If any of this sounds good to you let me know and I'll help out in any way I can with your questions.

I fully agree that the cartridge and the external Phono preamp is a must if high end sound is required from a TT.

I told De-Lab that he should consider his budget once more and I still say that.

Realizing that the TT itself can be purchased in better quality and for less money as used than from new, the cartridge can't and phono pre-amps in good quality do not hang around on trees to pick.

Following over 40 HiFi fora around the world in the US and in Europe, I realize that a lot of TT's commonly known as among the best in EU, are rare birds in the US.
A lot of Americans speak highly of e.g. the Technics, Pioneers and Sansui decks.
These decks are at the best deasent DJ TT's.
They are not good in the respect of reproducing sound in a
"true-to-the-original" way in a combo with other super sofisticated hand-picked equipment.

To recommend any cartridge, I would have to know more about what Des-Lab's music listening repetoire is.
The 10x5 is among one of those I used to have but put away on the shelf.
It's talked into cult status like some Denon PU's although they belong in the low-end entry level segment.
Maybe they're talked about a lot because most people are in this segment.

One of my hobbies during the 80's and up till now has been to select high-end hifi stores to visit in northern Europe to give their best shot a listen to evaluate.
What a lot of faulty attempts to satisfy my ears there were among those visits.
But in between I found shopkeepers that realy had the ability to match gear.
Those places are worth comming back to again and again.
this is where you can train your ears and pick the preferences of best-sound.

I have heard a very big lot of TT's and cartridges since I started listening TT's in the 60's.
I never gave up on LP's and I changes gear constantly through more than 30 years untill I finaly found what makes me satisfied some 7-8 years ago.

I would gladly comment on more and advise if Des-Lab or any other want it.
But I am honest and my opinion might offend others.
I apologize for that.

"dolph"

[Mr. Lin]

I say that because I know.

The new Rega P7 and P9 are a lot better than the old Planar, P1, P2 and P3.
I never heard P5 but I don't wxpect it to be better than P7.
I also heard a lot of the ProJect TT's including TOTL model RPM 10.

I tell you that if you buy a second hand Pink Triangel or Systemdek IIX, 900, IV, you will kick ass on those Rega and ProJect and you will kick ass with big boots.

I's sorry if I offend your possesion but I am at least honest to my experiences.

In comparison the Rega and ProJect TT's lack soundstage a lot, they lack the definition of deep notes, they lack the fine articulation in the top.
No reason to go more in details about that.

What you said was that you can't get "good sound" out of Rega turntables or Pro-Ject, so no, you don't know. In comparison to certain mega-buck top-end turntables I'm sure there are some things many Rega and Pro-Ject models will not do as well, but those are not what we're talking about here with a budget of $600.

I don't talk about what people ask for. A lot of people are novices and a lot of people buy what the neighbour have.
Some people are tone deaf and some people only listen to music that can't help in any way decising what sounds good and bad.

Yes, you do. By participating in this thread you're talking about what people ask for.

And today, talking about sub $ 1.000 TT's is like going for a new > 500ccm motorcycle in the sub $ 2000 category................you'll have to settle with chinese bikes.

Tongue-in-cheek or not, if you make statements like this, and you're serious, you really lose credibility in my book.

Following over 40 HiFi fora around the world in the US and in Europe, I realize that a lot of TT's commonly known as among the best in EU, are rare birds in the US.
A lot of Americans speak highly of e.g. the Technics, Pioneers and Sansui decks.
These decks are at the best deasent DJ TT's.
They are not good in the respect of reproducing sound in a
"true-to-the-original" way in a combo with other super sofisticated hand-picked equipment.

Just because turntables are considered the best in the EU does not make them the best in the world. To state that Technics, Pioneer, and Sansui models only make good DJ decks demonstrates your personal lack of understanding of what most of these turntables are actually capable of, especially if you claim they incapable of reproducing "true-to-the-original" sound.

To recommend any cartridge, I would have to know more about what Des-Lab's music listening repetoire is.
The 10x5 is among one of those I used to have but put away on the shelf.
It's talked into cult status like some Denon PU's although they belong in the low-end entry level segment.
Maybe they're talked about a lot because most people are in this segment.

Here once again you're missing the point of this thread. We're not talking about building the ultimate reference turntable system. There's always going to be something better. I know, you say you don't talk about what other people want. But I do, and the common characteristics of a good (not the best in the world) cartridge, like excellent imaging and soundstage, good detail retrieval, good frequency extension, and tracking ability - these are all things the Dynavector has, and with a slightly higher budget, it's something within the realm of possibility for Matt.

I would gladly comment on more and advise if Des-Lab or any other want it.
But I am honest and my opinion might offend others.
I apologize for that.

"dolph"

The problem is not that your opinion is offensive, the problem IMO is that you make sweeping generalizations that are going to end up confusing and misleading people who are new to this whole thing. Not that Matt, for example, doesn't know what he's doing to some degree when it comes to this topic, but if you're going to tell people who are looking to buy a new turntable/cartridge and get really good sound that it's not possible for under $1,000, to avoid brands like Rega and Pro-Ject, and that all Sansui, Pioneer, and Technics turntables are DJ decks which are incapable of reproducing sound properly - those are broad generalizations, and they're wrong.

[niklasthedolphin]

Mr. Lin.
I generalize, yes.
But it's not wrong.
Even within the budget you get much better if buying used and being picky following the generalizations i did.

I will not argue anymore with you.
We disagree on the subject.
That is also a generalization.
That, too, works.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, talking down on what you own.
Forgive me.

"dolph"

[Mr. Lin]

Mr. Lin.
I generalize, yes.
But it's not wrong.
Even within the budget you get much better if buying used and being picky following the generalizations i did.

I will not argue anymore with you.
We disagree on the subject.
That is also a generalization.
That, too, works.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, talking down on what you own.
Forgive me.

"dolph"


Dolph, my feelings were never hurt.