Future of FM.................

[RedGrant]

Is FM going to be around for awhile?

I propose this question because I am going for TOTL FM tuner, (I'm even peeking in audiogon, not really a place for bargain).

I want to make sure I am not sinking my funds into a dead hole.

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/digital-britain-wave-goodbye-to-high-quality-fm-radio-49302664/

[shadowlord]

Not all European countries have DAB like Great Britain.

I recently read an article why there is no DAB in Austria.
It appears that most people are satisfied with the existing FM broadcast and they didn't want to buy new equipment (at home, work, in the car and portable units) so there is no market for DAB.
it seems like FM (The heavy compressed pop stations we have ) will stay around for a while here.

i don't know the situation in the states though.

[scotchtape]

In the UK, a change of government has put a stay of execution on FM.
I bought a top 1990s Pioneer tuner for about £37 a couple of weeks ago cos of this.

DAB has a lot of problems - one being the millions of car radios that would need to be changed if it came in to rule at the expense of FM.

Long live FM!

[Warped Bezel]

I still buy an AA-5 AM tube set from the 30s-60s occasionally.If AM actually died I'd wire them into a network and feed them ultra low power Part 15 quality in a wired in network.

They're too nice to abandon.

Right now HD/IBOC isn't exactly threatening anything but the corresponding analog carrier (carrier to noise ratio is proportionally reduced with each subchannel and I would suspect that increasing the digital signal power just robs the analog carrier even more badly even with the whole signal power being increased.

"HD" is a terrible idea. There is/was another system called FM Extra that does not create many of the paradoxical troubles to the analog signal (more like a subcarrier--SCA--you know it for Muzak and data transmissions in stores and other places).

AM is similarly harmed. Night time transmission is impractical due to the unpredictable nature of e-skip.

The standard (broadcast/AM) band and FM band are not ideal candidates for hybrid (digital stacked on analog signals) digital transmissions. A new service would be ideal but even the Eureka 147 DAB (digital auidio broadcasting) system employed in Canada is meeting little success in being adopted by the Canadian public.

Ironically, the last time I heard the frequency band chosen for the Eureka broadcasts is used by the US military and therefore unavailable for US use.

In a nutshell, get that tuner! Those iPod transmitters will suit you if digital-only broadcasts ever came to pass. You would need to feed them by coaxial (75, 75 to 300 ohm balun) or make sure you did not capture licensed frequencies with your transmitter (thus disrupting reception by their radios and possibly leading to a Notice Of Violation and potenential forfeiture--usually monetary penalty, possible confiscation of equipment, possible jail time).

Mind you, that's about as slim a chance to happen as a Holstein dairy cow winning the Boston Marathon passing a Kenyan handily in the process.

[speakerman1]

If you want a nice tuner? Scott makes some very nice sounding tuners in my opinion. And they won't cost you an arm and a leg.

Larry

[RedGrant]

In the UK, a change of government has put a stay of execution on FM.


Off-topic. I am glad British people made that choice.





I bought a top 1990s Pioneer tuner for about £37 a couple of weeks ago cos of this.

I was thinking along the same line. I was going to wait till Britain made that transition, and grab a TOTL tuner when their owners started dumping them.

...but I figured that I may not be the only one thinking along the same line and there might be too many competition from all over the world, driving up the price.






DAB has a lot of problems - one being the millions of car radios that would need to be changed if it came in to rule at the expense of FM.

Long live FM!




That would make the manufacturers of DAB, and car electronic installers very happy, wouldn't it?

[RedGrant]

I still buy an AA-5 AM tube set from the 30s-60s occasionally.If AM actually died I'd wire them into a network and feed them ultra low power Part 15 quality in a wired in network.

They're too nice to abandon.

Right now HD/IBOC isn't exactly threatening anything but the corresponding analog carrier (carrier to noise ratio is proportionally reduced with each subchannel and I would suspect that increasing the digital signal power just robs the analog carrier even more badly even with the whole signal power being increased.

"HD" is a terrible idea. There is/was another system called FM Extra that does not create many of the paradoxical troubles to the analog signal (more like a subcarrier--SCA--you know it for Muzak and data transmissions in stores and other places).

AM is similarly harmed. Night time transmission is impractical due to the unpredictable nature of e-skip.

The standard (broadcast/AM) band and FM band are not ideal candidates for hybrid (digital stacked on analog signals) digital transmissions. A new service would be ideal but even the Eureka 147 DAB (digital auidio broadcasting) system employed in Canada is meeting little success in being adopted by the Canadian public.

Ironically, the last time I heard the frequency band chosen for the Eureka broadcasts is used by the US military and therefore unavailable for US use.

In a nutshell, get that tuner! Those iPod transmitters will suit you if digital-only broadcasts ever came to pass. You would need to feed them by coaxial (75, 75 to 300 ohm balun) or make sure you did not capture licensed frequencies with your transmitter (thus disrupting reception by their radios and possibly leading to a Notice Of Violation and potenential forfeiture--usually monetary penalty, possible confiscation of equipment, possible jail time).

Mind you, that's about as slim a chance to happen as a Holstein dairy cow winning the Boston Marathon passing a Kenyan handily in the process.

Great info. Another post worthy of archiving.

I became more interested in radio, because I realized I am watching TV less often and often. As for both background music and discovering new songs I like while multi-tasking, radio cannot be beat.


Also, I've heard that TOTL FM tuners can dub tapes with the same quality as vinyl.

[RedGrant]

If you want a nice tuner? Scott makes some very nice sounding tuners in my opinion. And they won't cost you an arm and a leg.

Larry

Yes, I agree. Scott makes very nice ones, especially for music with slow transition and tempo, and they don't cost too much.

However, I am going for TOTL tuner for several reasons.

1. Exclusivity. I want "bragging rights". I've got this, and very few people have this level of spec my tuner has.

2. SQ out of this world by FM standard. Unlike pre-recorded music, I am planning to listen to FM for an extended period time, discovering new music/songs I like, while multi-tasking. I cannot really do this with pre-recorded music.


3. Investment. I want this to be an investment in literal sense, like buying gold bullions, or Rolex, so that I could easily recoup what I've paid for plus possibly more if I ever have to sell it in the long run.


Of course, Tandberg 3001 is going to be the reference standard.

[scotchtape]

RedGrant said:
"That would make the manufacturers of DAB, and car electronic installers very happy, wouldn't it?"

Sure. Not the cash-strapped British motorists, though.

It's an ill wind.......... WW2 gave wealth and full employment to millions, including US agricultural workers and our own womenfolk who flocked to the aircraft and munitions factories.

[RedGrant]

RedGrant said:
"That would make the manufacturers of DAB, and car electronic installers very happy, wouldn't it?"

Sure. Not the cash-strapped British motorists, though.

It's an ill wind.......... WW2 gave wealth and full employment to millions, including US agricultural workers and our own womenfolk who flocked to the aircraft and munitions factories.

Well, I think the difference this time is that the principal problem at the time was the lack of overall effective demand on the part of consumers.

I think what WW2 really did was that it ignited the effective demand by providing the perception of financial security to the consumers in general.

All what DAB transition would provide is the transfer of some of the wealth from consumers in general to a relatively small group of business sector, not necessarily based on the free choices of those consumers. It would do little of what WW2 did.

[scotchtape]

Whatever.
The saying "...it's an ill wind..." applies to both scenarios.

[Warped Bezel]

Tell the poster it simply BLOWS CHUNKS and basically it's 100% correct.

[Rat44]

Well, I think the difference this time is that the principal problem at the time was the lack of overall effective demand on the part of consumers.
All what DAB transition would provide is the transfer of some of the wealth from consumers in general to a relatively small group of business sector, not necessarily based on the free choices of those consumers. It would do little of what WW2 did.

Don't think it can't happen.
They pushed Digital TV down our throats.
The consumers sure as hell didn't want it.
How much room was taken up in the landfills with obsolete VCR's and TV's.

[jdurbin1]

Then my only question to you is, do you prefer your Tandberg tuner in silver (3001) or black (3001A), and with or w/o the rosewood sidepanels? :-)

A word of warning though: I wouldn't spend an extra nickel for a tuner that was represented as "serviced by Soundsmith". Why? Two reasons; one, I've done that twice and had to service them anyway either because they had failed again subsequently (always a possibility no matter how well the previous repair was performed), or because the work that had been done was not done to my standards. These were still sticker-sealed and I've seen the same exact work on customer's units I serviced, so pretty sure I was looking at their work, not someone else's. The second reason is because a particular seller has been citing Soundsmith service as a selling point, and also says that his own tech has checked the equipment out. Having also gone down that path myself as a buyer only to find that the equipment I received did not work and could not have been checked as working by a competent tech, I have decided I just don't believe that particular sales claim any more, not from that source anyway, and not when it's being sold where there is little or no recourse for the buyer if it turns up less than functional.

If you're going to spend top dollar, there are just not many sellers out there that you can count on getting a top example from (unless someone like me serviced their tuner recently). If you are able to buy a fixer and put it into that kind of condition yourself, great - but look for the right price because it can be expensive to repair if you go through a 3rd party. I'm stupidly cheap on these right now (< $200 for full service) but most places competent enough to work on one aren't. You could spend the price of the tuner and then some on the follow-up service.

Anyway, caveat emptor... and watch for the real thing, coming soon to an auction site near you. Silver or black, with or without wood!

John

P.S. If by "Tandberg 3001 is going to be the reference standard" you meant you have one already, can disregard the buying advice above of course... but I leave it for anyone else that's considering going down that path.

P.P.S. I have been enjoying my 3001A quite a bit lately, listening to the classical or jazz programs late night weekends while working on other gear. Good programming on KSDS and KPBS here in San Diego and the 3001A really presents it fabulously.


Yes, I agree. Scott makes very nice ones, especially for music with slow transition and tempo, and they don't cost too much.

However, I am going for TOTL tuner for several reasons.

1. Exclusivity. I want "bragging rights". I've got this, and very few people have this level of spec my tuner has.

2. SQ out of this world by FM standard. Unlike pre-recorded music, I am planning to listen to FM for an extended period time, discovering new music/songs I like, while multi-tasking. I cannot really do this with pre-recorded music.


3. Investment. I want this to be an investment in literal sense, like buying gold bullions, or Rolex, so that I could easily recoup what I've paid for plus possibly more if I ever have to sell it in the long run.


Of course, Tandberg 3001 is going to be the reference standard.

[Warped Bezel]

Don't think it can't happen.
They pushed Digital TV down our throats.
The consumers sure as hell didn't want it.
How much room was taken up in the landfills with obsolete VCR's and TV's.

Don't you worry, they're all clogging my house RIGHT NOW.

Actually, The COOL TV is on 6.3 here. FINALLY, I have 25 channels of artery killing OTA worth something.

My only concern is that even with -22 dB gain across two lines is it too weak in the bedroom for the DISH DTV Pal Jr to deal with 3-4 signal ATSC (and it won't sort through the 3 audio options on 14.4 OPB Radio so I can chose News, OPB Music or KMHD Jazz)

I had a Zenith box that phased the color so maybe this is junk box 2 vs the Digital Stream that has a clunky menu setup but tells me what is stereo, DOLBY 5.1 and has a strength meter that will stay on screen long enought to adjust the antenna. It also has channel up/down, unlike the DISH, soI'm thinking the DISH box could be history and actual ATSC tuners show up on CL here for reasonable prices occasionally too.

What bugs both of us about DTV is not the transmissions but the stupid LCD sets that treat 480 analog better than 480 DIGITAL, plus the basic throwaway nature (when many flatscreens lose the backlighting you are told to toss the set as the entire SCREEN must be replaced!

Didn't AMERICANS set out to develop DTV to start with and now they are made in China and often refurbished in Mexico?

The system works, the sets are crap. Get cable or adapt.

[RedGrant]

Don't think it can't happen.
They pushed Digital TV down our throats.
The consumers sure as hell didn't want it.
How much room was taken up in the landfills with obsolete VCR's and TV's.


....and there are still people trying to unload TOTL Proton Analog TV tuner for a cool $150!

[RedGrant]

Then my only question to you is, do you prefer your Tandberg tuner in silver (3001) or black (3001A), and with or w/o the rosewood sidepanels? :-)

P.S. If by "Tandberg 3001 is going to be the reference standard" you meant you have one already, can disregard the buying advice above of course... but I leave it for anyone else that's considering going down that path.

P.P.S. I have been enjoying my 3001A quite a bit lately, listening to the classical or jazz programs late night weekends while working on other gear. Good programming on KSDS and KPBS here in San Diego and the 3001A really presents it fabulously.

No, I don't have one, yet, but I auditioned one after hearing about it in audiogon and a few other posters who I mostly agree with.

In fact, I might as well get all 3 candidate TOTL tuners, and decide it for myself. If 3001 is the best, then will keep it. If one of the other two is the best, then I can still sell 3001 without too much loss and won't have to regret about not giving it a fair hearing.

Btw. fmtunerinfo was kind of vague on 3001. It praised it greatly but wouldn't actually compare it to either of TOTL Accuphase or Kenwood tuner.

I am in talks with one in audiogon. According to him, his tuners are better, but who knows?





A word of warning though: I wouldn't spend an extra nickel for a tuner that was represented as "serviced by Soundsmith". Why? Two reasons; one, I've done that twice and had to service them anyway either because they had failed again subsequently (always a possibility no matter how well the previous repair was performed), or because the work that had been done was not done to my standards. These were still sticker-sealed and I've seen the same exact work on customer's units I serviced, so pretty sure I was looking at their work, not someone else's. The second reason is because a particular seller has been citing Soundsmith service as a selling point, and also says that his own tech has checked the equipment out. Having also gone down that path myself as a buyer only to find that the equipment I received did not work and could not have been checked as working by a competent tech, I have decided I just don't believe that particular sales claim any more, not from that source anyway, and not when it's being sold where there is little or no recourse for the buyer if it turns up less than functional.



I'll second that. One thing I did find about was that they charge way more about serving B&O decks than other techs that I know who have done a wonderful job on.

Besides they refuse to work on BC5000 and other drawer units. If they are so good, why couldn't they do the job? There are lots of BC5000 and other drawer units, they would be making lot of money.

I found out there is a tech in Michigan who does a fantastic job on them for about $175.





If you're going to spend top dollar, there are just not many sellers out there that you can count on getting a top example from (unless someone like me serviced their tuner recently). If you are able to buy a fixer and put it into that kind of condition yourself, great - but look for the right price because it can be expensive to repair if you go through a 3rd party. I'm stupidly cheap on these right now (< $200 for full service) but most places competent enough to work on one aren't. You could spend the price of the tuner and then some on the follow-up service.

For 3001 complete service, I expected to pay quite a bit more than that.

[RedGrant]

Btw. I've found out my Nikko Gamma V and Eumig T-1000 tuners are essentially the same ones, but Eumig has better ergonomics, more user-friendly interface.

[Dazen1]

Interesting article from the The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/01/ukrd-dab-digital-radio).

[RedGrant]

Interesting article from the The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/01/ukrd-dab-digital-radio).

Why is UK government insistent on DAB?

[Warped Bezel]

Why is UK government insistent on DAB?

It has MONEY in it!

[ferriteman]

It has MONEY in it!

I think that you are "on the money" on this one (LOL). If it is anything like digital TV in the USA...going digital freed up a large amount of bandwidth which the US gov't auctioned off to business users for billions of dollars. Digital TV was all about money, period. So I suspect going with digital radio has the same underlying reason behind it....